$11 JJ laydown... good bad? - Page 2

stupidsucker · #1 10-19-2005, 03:11 AM

I would like some more input please.

Preflop- Been having trouble with what I thought may be over aggression with JJ. I don't think limping with JJ is terrible at all though. I thought there was support for playing JJ this passive preflop. If I didnt mind being wrong, I wouldnt post hands like this.

Flop- I raised a good amount I thought. My other options were pushing, calling or raising more. Cold calling would have been terrible on the flop. The pot is 60, the bet is 50 (pot 110). Was my raise too small?

The cold call behind from both of them made me think. The turn card is not friendly.

Turn- With an unfriendly card completing a possible flush draw I wanted information. The call from smoke1977 on the flop really worried me. I threw out the min bet to test them both. I wanted to get HU, but if I saw too much action I was gone.

I felt that any bet worth while committed me so pushing was better then betting. Isnt this a situation where I am way ahead or way behind? Do I have enough outs to dry push this?

If I really played this like a complete donk then my poker sense is broken in an abouts this area. I felt uneasy about the play a little, but I ddint think it was bad enough to get this kind of response.

Please help.

Slim Pickens · #2 10-19-2005, 03:31 AM

Preflop: I raise here because I know I'm a favorite to flop at least an overpair, but limping and raising are so close in value that limping is also a fine play.

Flop: You're playing it straight up and I think that's the best way to do it at the 11's about 98.5% of the time, including here.

Turn: Was the minbet a misclick? It's not big enough to be a blocker and also not big enough for a value bet. After the raise, I'm not folding with ten clean outs plus the flush redraw, especially at the tens where there's even a chance I'm ahead of top pair and two pair.

stupidsucker · #3 10-19-2005, 03:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I raise here because I know I'm a favorite to flop at least an overpair, but limping and raising are so close in value that limping is also a fine play.

Flop: You're playing it straight up and I think that's the best way to do it at the 11's about 98.5% of the time, including here.

Turn: Was the minbet a misclick? It's not big enough to be a blocker and also not big enough for a value bet. After the raise, I'm not folding with ten clean outs plus the flush redraw, especially at the tens where there's even a chance I'm ahead of top pair and two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds more like the response I anticipated.

I folded to the turn raise.

pooh74 · #4 10-19-2005, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I raise here because I know I'm a favorite to flop at least an overpair, but limping and raising are so close in value that limping is also a fine play.

Flop: You're playing it straight up and I think that's the best way to do it at the 11's about 98.5% of the time, including here.

Turn: Was the minbet a misclick? It's not big enough to be a blocker and also not big enough for a value bet. After the raise, I'm not folding with ten clean outs plus the flush redraw, especially at the tens where there's even a chance I'm ahead of top pair and two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds more like the response I anticipated.

I folded to the turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean the turn raise where you are still ahead half of the time and have great odds to fill up still? that one?

Of course theyll raise their K2 when you rep 77...

Edit: not saying you arent behind here a lot of the time, but his raise was very kind actually.

stupidsucker · #5 10-19-2005, 01:56 PM

So to sum this up...

Preflop wasnt bad, but a raise is better.

Flop bet was good.

Turn my min bet was terrible. I think it came because the timer was tickign away and I was torn, so I clicked the min bet to buy me time and get more info. This is just a good example of how running badly and getting on tilt can affect your game just through indecison.

I folded without giving pot odds a thought whatsoever. My only thoughts were... "I think I am beat, and I still have chips to get ITM. I am only a double up behind." Is there ever a time my line of thought is good?

I should have either pushed the turn or check/called.
My other option is bet the turn. If so how much?

Thanks VERY much to the people that are replying.
I may have to dig up lots of my 99-JJ hands and see what everyone thinks. I think I may find a lot of my roi leak is within there.

john smith · #6 10-19-2005, 03:07 PM

I like check/calling the turn. If the board doesn't pair on the river and there's heavy action behind you, you can fold and still play with your remaining ~400 chips. Pushing probably wouldn't be too bad either.

Slim Pickens · #7 10-19-2005, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I folded without giving pot odds a thought whatsoever. My only thoughts were... "I think I am beat, and I still have chips to get ITM. I am only a double up behind." Is there ever a time my line of thought is good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone knows the laws of probability apply to poker in general. The biggest difference between the fish and the sharks is that the fish don't believe those laws apply specifically to them. You should never fail to consider pot odds. While there are times pot odds considerations can be trumped by others (implied odds, for example, or $EV vs. cEV), simply understanding and applying pot odds properly makes you better than about 75% of the players at the 11's. Understanding the difference between $EV and cEV gets you up to about 90%. You're worried about the last 10% without assuring you keep the first 90% covered.

adanthar · #8 10-19-2005, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I raise here because I know I'm a favorite to flop at least an overpair, but limping and raising are so close in value that limping is also a fine play.

Flop: You're playing it straight up and I think that's the best way to do it at the 11's about 98.5% of the time, including here.

Turn: Was the minbet a misclick? It's not big enough to be a blocker and also not big enough for a value bet. After the raise, I'm not folding with ten clean outs plus the flush redraw, especially at the tens where there's even a chance I'm ahead of top pair and two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this.

applejuicekid · #9 10-19-2005, 03:44 AM

I must be really tired. I can't imagine ever folding this. I would call expecting to have the best hand. You guys must play poker in an entirely different world if you are even considering a fold.

Scuba Chuck · #10 10-19-2005, 04:06 AM

SS, food for thought.

Some basics. I think you're raising JJ here for value. Remember, these knuckleheads are gonna make lots of mistakes. Furthermore, think about how the pot is gonna look after the flop especially if you flop all unders. One, you want to be able to make a bet that will protect your hand, and two, you want to eliminate the blinds from calling without being able to put them on some kind of hand (which of course isn't always possible).

Your flop raise was very good, and their subsequent flush chasing calls are their continued mistakes. But, you can't fold, then you're now making the mistake. You have to call the turn bet with 10:1 pot odds. I know we all like to think we're better than the field, but it's really tough to think you're better than the odds, especially these ones. Call, and make a river decision.