QQ, hand protection, and being the calling station

topspin · #1 07-24-2005, 12:39 AM

Obviously my first hand at table. Interested in comments on flop and turn play.

On the flop, with the pot being enormous and my relative position to the aggressor being quite good, I decide to call and raise a safe turn card. Then UTG foils my ploy by leading the turn and trapping the field. In addition, the board is scary and I would like to show down my hand in this giant pot.

Anyone find a raise anywhere in this hand?

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) handconverter.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $1.50. Hero posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, MP3 (poster) calls, Hero (poster) 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (22 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls ...

ArturiusX · #2 07-24-2005, 12:48 AM

Raise the flop for value [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Bodhi · #3 07-24-2005, 02:30 AM

You have to raise this. So what if you didn't get to make the field face two cold? Raise this for value, please!

Bodhi · #4 07-24-2005, 02:32 AM

I was going to say the same thing because very few cards can come to beat QQ, but this example is straight out of SSHE, is it not? After a little hemming and hawing I can see the value in waiting to raise the turn (it's just that the real problem is depending on the same player to bet again on the turn).

arsixsixwy · #5 07-24-2005, 04:16 AM

I guess I don't really see what you're protecting your hand from on the flop. I guess there are some straight possibilities out there, but you aren't able to protect your hand against the open-ended draws and the gutshots are probably unfoldable as well, especially with their implied odds. I think you need to raise the flop for value and to try to drive out the overcards, backdoor flushes, and maybe underpairs.

aK13 · #6 07-24-2005, 04:33 AM

This is not the time to wait for the turn to raise to protect.

With 22 bets in the flop, almost nobody is folding, so the turn is going to be about 16BBs, which is giving gutshots still pretty ample implied odds to draw against this many people -- can't protect, so raise for value.

ArturiusX · #7 07-24-2005, 04:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was going to say the same thing because very few cards can come to beat QQ, but this example is straight out of SSHE, is it not? After a little hemming and hawing I can see the value in waiting to raise the turn (it's just that the real problem is depending on the same player to bet again on the turn).

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE also talks about how sometimes you can't protect your hand at all, and you can only value bet. This is one of those situations. Once the pot reaches these kinds of odds, just get in as many bets as you can.

fflyer · #8 07-24-2005, 04:50 AM

I would raise the flop to try to persuade anyone with a weak Ace or King to fold. I'm not sure that this is the best time to be trying to protect here with a hand that is so vulnerable to overcards. As you played it, the bet by UTG on the turn is ominous. Difficult to place his hand without reads, but 77 or 109 are definitely in the frame, or even a slow played A6s or something similar although you might have heard about this on the flop if he had it. It is going to cost you 2 BB at least to see this hand to a showdown. You are currently getting 10-1 on your money. Maybe UTG is donk betting a draw I suppose. With the pot being so large, I guess I would call the turn, expecting to be losing unless I spike a Queen on the river. Raising the turn is a chip spew IMHO.

thesharpie · #9 07-24-2005, 04:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was going to say the same thing because very few cards can come to beat QQ, but this example is straight out of SSHE, is it not? After a little hemming and hawing I can see the value in waiting to raise the turn (it's just that the real problem is depending on the same player to bet again on the turn).

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE also talks about how sometimes you can't protect your hand at all, and you can only value bet. This is one of those situations. Once the pot reaches these kinds of odds, just get in as many bets as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

The hand they talk about waiting for the turn to raise has the same number of bets in it as this pot, so what you're saying about the pot being too big is wrong. We can cut down gutshot and overcard outs considerably on the turn, the question is whether MP2 will lead again, and whether there's more value in raising for value than trying to protect.

The hand they talk about waiting for the turn to raise also only had 1 overcard that could beat it, although the flop was 2 suited and 2 cards were connected which made draws more likely.

Eeegah · #10 07-24-2005, 05:18 AM

We're talking about the "Two Overpair Hands" section, correct? In the hand they give, the board is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The first example is with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img](raise) and then T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (call) there's a lot more than 1 possible overcard there! (Though I'd still bet out because I suck [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] )