QQ, hand protection, and being the calling station

[thesharpie]

I assume if MP2 capped preflop you'd advocate waiting for the turn?

He doesn't have to bet the turn everytime to make waiting the best play as our equity edge on the flop isn't that large. Of course getting people to incorrectly fold would be nice.

Anyone have any idea on how often we'd need MP2 leading the turn, and noone else leading before him, to make waiting the best play?

[MATT111]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not the time to wait for the turn to raise to protect.

With 22 bets in the flop, almost nobody is folding, so the turn is going to be about 16BBs, which is giving gutshots still pretty ample implied odds to draw against this many people -- can't protect, so raise for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

16-2=8-1 does not give a gutshot correct odds to call, especially with the initial bettor still to act.
I don`t think it`s a bad play to wait for the turn to raise but still I am not 100% convinced that it`s better than raising the flop.

[MATT111]

[ QUOTE ]
this is an instaraise on the flop. protect your hand dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just does not work here IMHO.

[txdolly]

The way the hand played out I would likely put the MP on something like AK, AQ. Post flop it appears that a bet or raise is for value at this point. But raising on the turn could be more profitable. So the question should be on the hand you are more than likely to win what is the best way to maximize my EV? Am I wrong here? I know that you want to protect your hand but with a pot this large it would be difficult as you stated before just about anyone with a gutshot or BD draws could make a profitable call.

[Asim]

he could be on jacks, or AK... it not like you really are playing back at him, if he had KK or AA, I am almost positive the villan would have cappeed PF on you... however, after the flop you showed no aggression, if you wanted to protect your hand, I would suggest raising on the flop, and bet the turn since it will most likely be checked to you, the board doesnt look that scary for your queens.

just wondering... why can you not protect your hand in this situation? because the pot is too big?

and personally, on a 3-bet PF... i dont see anyone having a 6 or 109

[davelin]

Not raising the flop is debatable but fine. Not raising the turn kind of sucks honestly.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the flop is debatable but fine. Not raising the turn kind of sucks honestly.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what i what just wondering.

can someone explain why not raising the turn is correct?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the flop is debatable but fine. Not raising the turn kind of sucks honestly.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what i what just wondering.

can someone explain why not raising the turn is correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing that I don't see mentioned is that not raising the flop here can sometimes lead to tougher decisions on the turn because you haven't identified the strength of your hand yet. Say you just call the flop and then there's a bet and a raise in front of you on the turn...now what? That decision is a little easier if you've raised the flop and established some sort of strength to the rest of the field.

Here it looks like (I'm hoping) that the OP got a little calling-station-itis because someone else woke up on the river on a semi-scare card. Again, this bet may not mean what you think because you didn't establish yourself on the flop.

Given there are players trapped between you and Villain on the turn, this is an easy raise on the turn for me.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
16-2=8-1 does not give a gutshot correct odds to call, especially with the initial bettor still to act.
I don`t think it`s a bad play to wait for the turn to raise but still I am not 100% convinced that it`s better than raising the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Between the likelyhood of there being callers behind and the implied odds, a gutshot has close enough odds that they wouldn't be incorrect to call.

[PokerBob]

IMO the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a card I'm raising