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#11
12-14-2005, 03:46 PM
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Re: set K\'s and coordinated board on river
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] bet/call [/ QUOTE ] What do you think a non-aggressive SB is check-raising with on this river that we're behind? OP doesn't give a very detailed description - but from what it sounds like this is the kind of player that will: - check/call with pair and 2-pair hands - donk-bet a Q fearing that Hero is going to check-behind - Villian might c/r a straight but, definitely isn't check-raising anything that Hero beats - again because the board is just as scary for Villian. Value Bet, Fold to a checkraise. [/ QUOTE ] I would need a better read to fold to a c/r on the river. The pot is too big for that. The villain CAN c/r the river with 2 pair. 
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#12
12-14-2005, 03:53 PM
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Re: set K\'s and coordinated board on river
[ QUOTE ]
I would need a better read to fold to a c/r on the river. The pot is too big for that. The villain CAN c/r the river with 2 pair. [/ QUOTE ] Let me clarify... I'm making some assumptions regarding the OP's read of SB which was: "not particularly aggressive". We can only infer what the OP really meant by this statement and, although he's been active since the OP in this thread, he's provided no additional details. In my inference of what "not particularly aggressive" means - I'm not calling a river bet. Perhaps your, and others who advocate the bet/call line, understanding of that read is that this player is capable of raising two pair, against an aggressor, on a 4-broadway board. I don't agree - but as I stated in my first reply in this thread it's "VERY player dependant".
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#13
12-14-2005, 04:02 PM
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Re: set K\'s and coordinated board on river
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It’s 13-1 to call a check/raise on the river. I’d want a better read than, “not particularly aggressive” before I fold there. [/ QUOTE ] This is a good reason why players like yourself are probably not winning as much as you could be. Just beacuse you're getting 13-to-1 here is not a good reason to call. Look at the board. Recall how Villian has played the previous streets. Recall that Hero has only shown-down quality hands. Realize that this board looks just as scary to a Villian as it does to Hero. This Villian is NOT checkraising with less than the nuts here. [/ QUOTE ] Good points. The main reason I posted the hand was to get the discussion going on what if I was CRd. I almost folded to the CR, just need to get better at making that decision. Perhaps taking more time to realize that the board is just as scary to this villian and he was likely not to CR without the nuts.
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#14
12-14-2005, 04:09 PM
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Re: set K\'s and coordinated board on river
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps taking more time to realize that the board is just as scary to this villian and he was likely not to CR without the nuts. [/ QUOTE ] I really think that overall some of the posters in this thread are overestimating the % of the time that you'll get c/r by a hand that doesn't contain a Queen. I think their error is even worse given the level we're speaking of and the large population of players at said level that will not even checkraise WITH a Queen.
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#15
12-14-2005, 06:05 PM
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Re: set K\'s and coordinated board on river
You say, “This is a good reason why players like yourself are probably not winning as much as you could be.” Maybe, and I can’t argue with that, it’s the reason I’m here, as is maybe are most posters.
Here, you’re taking the OP’s rather non-descript read of “not particularly aggressive”, then defining him as a tight-weak passive player with a rigid set of rules for how he plays 2-pair and rivered straights. The only variability you allow this player is that he sometimes won’t even raise with the nuts. The OP doesn’t provide any info on how many hands he plays, a metric on how aggressive he actually is based on hundreds of PT hands or a degree of certainty to his read. He only presents a sort of a gut feel for how aggressive. And that’s understandable because he’s playing at a site that doesn’t work with PT. The fact is, even passive players can make bizarre plays at times, especially when the pots get big. I take OP’s overview read for just that, a basic feeling for how he plays. Then, instead of inferring a defined strategy for how he plays, I accept that this read is somewhat variable or undefined to a degree. In this hand, the pot is too big and the Villian is too undefined to fold. Sure, if I knew he had a post-flop aggressiveness of 0.5 over 200 hands, then ya fold it.
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#16
12-14-2005, 06:55 PM
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Re: set K\'s and coordinated board on river
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It’s 13-1 to call a check/raise on the river. I’d want a better read than, “not particularly aggressive” before I fold there. [/ QUOTE ] This is a good reason why players like yourself are probably not winning as much as you could be. Just beacuse you're getting 13-to-1 here is not a good reason to call. Look at the board. Recall how Villian has played the previous streets. Recall that Hero has only shown-down quality hands. Realize that this board looks just as scary to a Villian as it does to Hero. This Villian is NOT checkraising with less than the nuts here. [/ QUOTE ] Its far more important on these kind of hands to get to showdown then value bet. I'd much rather have check /call then bet / fold. You are not going to get called very often with this board, but you run the risk of too many people playing a c/r bluff or what they think is a c/r value bet. You have position in the hand, use it for the free/low cost show down.
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#17
12-14-2005, 07:46 PM
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Re: set K\'s and coordinated board on river
[ QUOTE ]
Here, you’re taking the OP’s rather non-descript read of “not particularly aggressive”, then defining him as a tight-weak passive player with a rigid set of rules for how he plays 2-pair and rivered straights. The only variability you allow this player is that he sometimes won’t even raise with the nuts. [/ QUOTE ] I'm defining that player based on a weak/low-information read AND the generalizations that I can make on relatively unknown players after playing 100K+ hands at the 2/4 level. If you can't fold to a c/r here - then you probably should be checking behind.
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#18
12-14-2005, 09:21 PM
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Re: set K\'s and coordinated board on river
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Here, you’re taking the OP’s rather non-descript read of “not particularly aggressive”, then defining him as a tight-weak passive player with a rigid set of rules for how he plays 2-pair and rivered straights. The only variability you allow this player is that he sometimes won’t even raise with the nuts. [/ QUOTE ] I'm defining that player based on a weak/low-information read AND the generalizations that I can make on relatively unknown players after playing 100K+ hands at the 2/4 level. If you can't fold to a c/r here - then you probably should be checking behind. [/ QUOTE ] All I am saying here is that with the 4 straight, hero is much better off checking down for a showdown, as opposed to having to call a c/r. Very few hands will just call down the 1 bet, but enough hands that you beat will c/r
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