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  #11  
Old 11-13-2005, 02:51 AM
PLOlover PLOlover is offline
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Default Re: bankroll requirements for short stack theory

[ QUOTE ]

What does the number of tables have to do with the required bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

Using the extreme example to disprove idea, it is easy to see that if you play 100 tables you would need a larger bankroll. Of course, in practice, this may not apply.
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2005, 04:37 AM
pokernicus pokernicus is offline
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Default Re: bankroll requirements for short stack theory

[ QUOTE ]
I think your bankroll requirements have to be pretty high. I say this because the only person I know who is winning with the short-buy system plays 12+ tables.

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Huh? This doesn't make sense -- whether a strategy is +EV is independent of the number of tables played simultaneously. If it's profitable when 12-tabling, then it'll be profitable when single tabling (though it might take you longer to earn the same amount of money).
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2005, 03:14 PM
Scotch78 Scotch78 is offline
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Default Re: bankroll requirements for short stack theory

[ QUOTE ]
What does the number of tables have to do with the required bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about SNGs, but for ring play it can make a huge difference. As an 8-tabler I need 200BB just to sit and play, so if I used the generic 300BB rule I'd have to drop tables during large downswings.

Scott
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  #14  
Old 12-02-2005, 11:16 AM
Dazarath Dazarath is offline
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Default Re: bankroll requirements for short stack theory

[ QUOTE ]
Using the extreme example to disprove idea, it is easy to see that if you play 100 tables you would need a larger bankroll. Of course, in practice, this may not apply.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an extreme case and it's not quite addressing the standard misconception a lot of people have.

There's been quite a few threads on this subject, and the misconception is that playing more tables increases your variance. The thing is, your variance per hour (or per amount of time), but your variance per 100 hands does not.

In theory, if you play the same multi-tabling as you do single-tabling, then the bankroll requirements are exactly the same for a given winrate, standard deviation, and desired risk of ruin.

In reality, changing the number of tables also changes your winrate. Most of us could not 100-table without dropping our winrate into the red. You could also argue that a 4-tabler could choose the 4 juiciest tables available, whereas an 8-tabler would be forced to sit down on the 4 next juiciest tables, which would lower one's BB/100. The bankroll requirements do change, not because of a change in variance, but because of the inevitable change in winrate.

There's also the so-called "ADD" internet players who claim that their winrate actually increases when going from 1 table to 4 tables because the "boredom" would cause them to play hands they otherwise would've folded. I'm probably one of these people. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #15  
Old 12-05-2005, 08:56 PM
Rudi Rudi is offline
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Default Re: bankroll requirements for short stack theory

What happens when sites won't let you buy-in for the 25BB for a short stack strategy and the minimum buy-in is a medium stack of 50BB?

The bankroll would need to be adjusted upwards yet again, I think.
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  #16  
Old 12-10-2005, 09:01 PM
ptmusic ptmusic is offline
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Default Re: bankroll requirements for short stack theory

[ QUOTE ]
What happens when sites won't let you buy-in for the 25BB for a short stack strategy and the minimum buy-in is a medium stack of 50BB?

The bankroll would need to be adjusted upwards yet again, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in that case you can't properly do the short stack system, which is predicated on the strategy of getting all your chips in and decisions made before the turn. 50bb won't let you do that, unless you raise so much preflop that you drive everyone away.

So when I was playing the short stack system, I avoided those sites that wouldn't let me buy-in short. I also avoided the sites which had a large minimum add-on requirement (for those times when my stack dwindled down below 15bbs due to the blinds).
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  #17  
Old 12-11-2005, 11:01 AM
Zim Zim is offline
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Default Some numbers I played with for Kelly bankrolls shortstacked ...

Those who were winning with the shortstack strategy claimed win rates between 3 and 5 PTBB/100 hands. With a standard deviation of between 18 and 21PTBB.

We'll go in the middle then, and say 4PTBB/100 hands, and an SD of 20.

Thus, for a full Kelly bankroll (13% ROR) ..

(20)^2/4= 100 PTBBs or about $50 at your typical $25NL Party game.

Now that's at 13% ROR which is a little swingy for most people ... if we double that stake, we can reduce ROR down to 1.69% (.13x.13)

Thus, $100 should give us 20 buy-ins of about $5 with a ROR of less than 2%.

So ... yah, what everyone has been saying. 15-20 buy-ins should do you fine.

If you are a winning player.

I've recently experimented shortstacking PL. After 3000 hands, ten-tabling, I'm dead even ... but it is interesting.

Best,
Zim
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  #18  
Old 12-11-2005, 01:37 PM
Rudi Rudi is offline
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Default Re: Some numbers I played with for Kelly bankrolls shortstacked ...

Based on ptmusic's response, I need to find a sight that will let me buy-in for 25BB.

What sites let you buy-in for the 25BB? And what limits are those, since I'd like to start at $0.01/$0.02?
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  #19  
Old 12-11-2005, 05:16 PM
Matt Ruff Matt Ruff is offline
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Default Re: Some numbers I played with for Kelly bankrolls shortstacked ...

[ QUOTE ]
What sites let you buy-in for the 25BB? And what limits are those, since I'd like to start at $0.01/$0.02?

[/ QUOTE ]

Party, Paradise, Full Tilt, and Ultimate Bet will let you buy-in for 25BB, although I think only UB has penny tables.

Pokerstars' minimum buy-in is 20BB at the .05/.10 and higher. At the .01/.02, it's 50BB.
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