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  #21  
Old 12-09-2005, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE

sorry guys, i respectfully disagree. i think having good familiarity with different charts should be at the core of your game.... but no i don't have the charts taped to my computer or anything. but i look at them alot between play.

no, it's not difficult to figure out who's a "calling station" etc... but actually now you're type-casting people. seems like that's pretty similar to being fixated on the charts.

the book does say don't deviate heavily from the charts. i could cite the page when i get home, but i'm pretty sure it's not worth the bother.

let me fixate on the charts and keep losing. and you can crush the tables with your great reads, your great feel for your opponents and your fancy abilities and we can all be happy.
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  #22  
Old 12-09-2005, 04:44 PM
PJS PJS is offline
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Default Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is fairly easy for a fish to stop playing junk (if they want to),

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be suprised. Many players can't get past the boredom of playing fewer hands. They want to be involved in the action, not watch it. Many don't know how to watch a hand unless they are involved in it. So, even though they may stop for a little while as far as playing crap, they will most likely revert back to it. Especially after a bad run coupled with seeing other bad players take down pots with crap.

I wouldn't underestimate the discipline it takes to tighten up preflop longterm.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not underestimating how many players play junk. Certainly, the vast majority of bad players do play bad cards. What I am saying, is even if someone is taking the time to improve their play, they may still be a poor player. For example, a person who is clueless about what cards to play can instantly improve their play by looking at a pre flop chart. However, they may not take the time to understand the theory behind playing hands in different situations and why a hands value changes, therefore, fail to adjust when they need to. Furthermore, there is no "quick fix" for post flop play (such as looking at a chart) it requires a lot of learning and thinking which the majority of players are not willing to do. As a result, they may get a quick understanding on when to fold to a raise pre flop, but still go too far with a hand once they have entered a pot.

I do agree though that most players do get bored and start playing too many hands, but I think even the players who try to stick to the pre flop guidelins play quite poorly after the flop.
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  #23  
Old 12-09-2005, 04:47 PM
benfranklin benfranklin is offline
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Default Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is fairly easy for a fish to stop playing junk (if they want to),

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be suprised. Many players can't get past the boredom of playing fewer hands. They want to be involved in the action, not watch it.

[/ QUOTE ]

All-time classic fish line: "How can you fold preflop? You haven't seen your hand yet!"
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  #24  
Old 12-09-2005, 05:09 PM
bernie bernie is offline
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Default Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE

[ QUOTE ]
i think having good familiarity with different charts should be at the core of your game....



[/ QUOTE ]

I think knowing why hands play well in certain situations should be at the core, not the charts. Charts are a good start, and will help point you in the right direction, but eventually you will have to move beyond them to fully understand key parts of the game.

[ QUOTE ]
but actually now you're type-casting people. seems like that's pretty similar to being fixated on the charts.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's called player profiling. Failure to do this and adjust is failure to maximize situations. It starts with recognizing the situations.

[ QUOTE ]
let me fixate on the charts and keep losing. and you can crush the tables with your great reads, your great feel for your opponents and your fancy abilities and we can all be happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not fancy abilities or anything. It's lots of study and experience. Sorry we can't just give you the cliff notes/cookie cutter version of how to do well. Do you want to do the work to get better or not?

b
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  #25  
Old 12-09-2005, 05:13 PM
benfranklin benfranklin is offline
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Default Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE

[ QUOTE ]
i think having good familiarity with different charts should be at the core of your game

[/ QUOTE ]

The core of the game is making correct decisions.

There are preflop decisions and postflop decisions. A chart can quickly and easily provide input on one factor that goes into the preflop decision: an objective evaluation of your hand strength. Other factors include your position, your position relative to tight or loose players, what your postflop position will be, whether the players who have acted are tight or loose, whether the players who have yet to act are tight or loose, the size of the pot, the likely size of the pot, whether your hand plays well against the likely number of opponents seeing the flop, etc.

More and/or "better" charts aren't going to improve anyone's game. A chart is a tool. A good player, like a good craftsman, acquires more and more tools. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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  #26  
Old 12-09-2005, 10:47 PM
Zim Zim is offline
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Default Thanks gentlemen, however ...

I must be honest ... I was more concerned with post flop play in tight games than preflop charts.

It only took me a few rounds to realize that limping in with small pocket pairs from mid and late position was a waste of time when few see the flop.

But I have open raised with them in the SB.

Now ... this is not mentioned in SSHE. And I can only surmise that the reason for this is the overal theme of the book (big pots, loose play).

I don't think a newb should be left to figure these things out for himself.

And it begs the question: How much more information has been left out, not by oversight ... but more because it was written for a different play environment.

As I understand, Ed Miller is not a big fan of online play (actually, didn't he admit to busting out at the 1/2 and 2/4 online tables when he started out?) ... but has been successful in B&M poker rooms.

Hey, his book is awesome. But I need a book written by someone who is, say ... successfully ten tabling 2/4 online games.

This is a vastly different environment than the old school. The fundamentals may well be fundamentals, but the context they take place in can lead to a great deal of mis-interpretation by a noobie.

(I wrote a nice, somewhat under-appreciated post on this in Poker Theory)
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  #27  
Old 12-09-2005, 11:06 PM
Zim Zim is offline
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Default Times have changed, thanks Rud and friends ...

In particular:

All in all I think 10-handed hold'em is a dying beast, atleast online.

I remember sitting at a 1/2 table (Crypto site) and we were all being talkative for some reason. Half the table had PT, and most had read Skalansky or Miller. Before you know it, we were all talking about win rates and standard deviation, prompting one to comment:

"This has to be the most skilled, 1/2 table in existence"

I have no doubt a good player can still profit in the full table, low-limit games. Nonetheless, it seems pointless if the fish have moved.

I think if you want to make money at poker, you have to keep abreast of the current trends and playing environments. From what I've read, so far, I think the new breed of successful poker player, and one you'll likely be playing against is ...

Multi-tabling, 6-max, PT, HUDs, seeking out fish in the lower limits.

This is vastly different environment than poker books that start with the premise you'll be sitting down at a full table with people who will play any two cards.

Thanks Rud, I'll check out King Yao's (love the name) book.

Best,
Zim
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  #28  
Old 12-09-2005, 11:26 PM
Zim Zim is offline
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Default Thanks SM ..

Yah ... I figured I might get scorched a bit. Actually, the responses have been quite reasonable, particularly considering I'm a newbie.

I thank everyone for their restraint.

I just find it a little frustrating to discover the games are not easy to beat, and I suspect part of the reason is how they are portrayed in the poker media:

Populated by idiots who want to give you their money.

Well ... even an idiot can play a tight agressive game preflop, and even if he errs on the side of passive/weak post flop, you're not gonna make much money from him.

However, I will agree ... I played some Europeans on the Cryptos, recently, (.5/1) and I was amazed:

Five people were seeing the flop, even after a raise. And they were livid when I made my draws. Ed Miller's book was awesome for that sort of environment.

At one point the game was capped, 6 way, preflop. I had 67s (that's a questionable play, I suppose, but this was such an unusual situation, that I'd never encountered before ... I felt I couldn't fold) Long story short, made the nut draw, a 44 BB pot.

You should have heard the squawking.

But this is rather rare, and I have no interest in confining my play to 1BP tables on the Crypto network on Saturday night.

Always great to hear your thoughts, SM, as it seems we are experiencing similar things.

Best,
Zim
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  #29  
Old 12-10-2005, 12:08 AM
SNOWBALL138 SNOWBALL138 is offline
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Default Re: Thanks SM ..

Hi Zim,

Once you have a very solid memorized preflop strategy, you need to work on your postflop play. Texas hold em is extremely complex after the flop, even in loose games, and it takes a lot of studying and practice at the tables before you can start to feel comfortable in the many different and often unique situations that occur.

I'm not there yet, but I'm certainly learning to play better every day because I realize that I'm not there.
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  #30  
Old 12-10-2005, 06:24 AM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
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Default Re: Thanks gentlemen, however ...

[ QUOTE ]
As I understand, Ed Miller is not a big fan of online play (actually, didn't he admit to busting out at the 1/2 and 2/4 online tables when he started out?) ... but has been successful in B&M poker rooms.

Hey, his book is awesome. But I need a book written by someone who is, say ... successfully ten tabling 2/4 online games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lately I've been 5-tabling the $3-$6 6max at Party. I suppose they play semi-tight preflop, but the games are still really soft.

Here's my quick tips:

Preflop:
1. Don't open-limp.
2. Play quite tightly in the first two spots. Open up a bit in the cutoff and a fair bit more on the button.
3. Favor hands with showdown value. On the button you want K8s, not T8s.
4. Treat many raises with respect still. A lot of these guys don't raise enough preflop in general, so those raises mean something. Or rather, get PokerAce so you know the difference between someone who raises 7% of the time and someone who raises 25%. KQ is still a fold against the 7%er, 6-max or no.
5. No need to play your small blind that much, but defend your big blind liberally against the 25% raiser types. This means some nasty stuff like Q8o and so forth. If you roll over on your big blind in 6-max, you'll get hammered. There's an article on my website about shorthanded blind defense.

Postflop:
1. A big chunk of your money will come from a relatively small number of really terrible players. They tend to be either mega-maniacs or calling stations. Bet the calling stations to death, and fire it up against the maniacs when you flop something decent. The thing that's so great about maniacs is everyone starts playing stupid. Wait for fairly good hands and cap away. Though use common sense. Even maniacs tend to back off on the turn and river some, so if they keep coming, be careful.
2. Avoid putting in lots of action and then folding. That's a huge mistake, yet one players who are trying to be good tend to make. They get fancy with semi-bluffs, get taken one more bet, and then end up folding in a huge pot when they miss. Every time you raise, you should be more and more sure you're going to showdown.
3. There are also bettors and callers. The bettors try to push you off every other hand. They can't resist betting into a raiser on a T55 flop. They call to the river with their ace-high, and when they don't improve, they gotta take a stab at the pot. You beat the bettors by calling. Generally you don't want to slow them down... just use their momentum against them.

The callers have adjusted to the bettors, and call everyone down. While that works fine against the bettors, it shouldn't work against you. Bet for value on the turn and river when you flop good, and check behind when you don't. They won't adjust, and they'll be calling you down too often.

With due respect to the chart-lovers, no chart is going to make you a winning 6-max player. You have to pay attention to your opponents' proclivities and take advantage of them. You'll be playing a lot of heads-up pots against a lot of one-dimensional players. This one's a bettor. This one's a caller. This one likes to give up too fast if you 3-bet him preflop.

You don't have to play great to beat these guys. But you do have to be identifying how they play (usually badly and with systematic errors) and adjust to their play.

PS. For some reason, a lot of people seem to like this particular dummkopf play in the $3-$6 game: Open-raise with some jank and get 3-bet by me from the blind. After I auto-bet the flop, they auto-raise me. If I call and check the turn, they take the free card with a ton of hands.

The problem with this play is that I had the better hand preflop, and I'm still just as likely to have the better hand after their flop auto-raise. They are making the pot bigger, tieing me to my hand for showdown. And they are asking to get themselves 3-bet on the flop drawing very thin.

For instance, some guy open-raises with A9. I 3-bet in the blind with AK. He calls. Flop comes KT4. I bet, he auto-raises. It's dumb. Don't fall into that trap, but watch out for it.
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