PP $100 SnG--Chasing the Dragon...

[DougBrennan]

...or in this case, the draw.

I'm curious as to how others would play this.

I just recently returned to SnG action, have been playing MTTs only, and this hand came up on the first deal at a Party $100 table.

I am in MP1 looking at

6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

two folds to me, I call 15, two calls after me, SB folds, BB checks--four to this dandy little flop:

3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I like it, I like it! BB bets out 30, and here I make a mistake, IMO. I raise to 75, thinking (A)to discourage those behind me, and (B)I was willing to take the pot as is, considering I had nothing yet. (A) went just fine, two folds. (B) not so much--BB raised all-in!

So now we come to my question (but feel free to tell me how bad my wimpy raise was--hey, I hadn't been up long--like that's a good excuse).

Do you fold here, or chase the 15-out draw knowing that the chance to double up is counter-balanced by the chance to flame out in a glorious heap of ashes?

Results in following post--no fair reading ahead [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Doug

[Bigwig]

Actually, I fold preflop.

Beyond that, I fold to the all-in. You're not drawing to the nut flush, and it's possible (although unlikely, since I'm talking about one specific hand) that the BB has A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. If he has a set, then your outs don't equate to being a favorite, since he can make a boat. If he has top two pair, it's still a coinflip.

In short, it's early, and I'm uncomfortable with a call here. I would fold.

[Chief911]

Doug,

Whats your PP username? I swear this JUST happened at my $100 table about an hour ago, but the username that had 56s was not dougbrennan. At first I thought the guy who went allin with 56 was NUTS (Thinking to myself "Woohoo, I'm in a fishbowl!"). Then I looked back at the hand history and saw that he had not only a flush but a straight draw. Now you wonder who poorly played the hand. The guy who pushed with two pair, or the guy who pushed first hand with a draw (Albiet a big one).

My conclusion was this.

If I have an overcard straight draw, I think I would be MUCH more tempted to push here. I would say there is a 50% of the time the other guy going allin has either trips or a flush draw. If he has a flush draw, you make your flush, you're beat. If he has trips, he has 5+ outs to the nuts. That leaves you with less outs that it would seem initially.

After playing only 10 of these in the last two days, I've also come to the conclusion that the play here has gotten a lot WORSE than it was 3 months ago. Therefore I think I'd shy away from this hand more than you did, and would probably fold.

It was funny to watch though!

Nick

[DougBrennan]

To review:

I hold the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], the flop is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and I am trying to decide whether or not to call an all-in reraise of my not-so-smart original raise.

Well, regardless of what you might have done, I called the all-in. Like THAT'S a big surprise to anyone who has played with me.

I knew I was behind on the hand, but I figured that if all my outs stayed good I was a slight favorite in the hand. As it developed, my opponent held a BB Special of K3, so his chances at a boat probably smoothed out the odds some.

In any event the turn came

7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

and the river brought

8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

so I made my straight and it held up. Thus I managed to stave off my flame-out until, with 4 left, my KJ all-in ran into AA.

I now wear my Bubble Boy crown with pride.

Thanks for any and all responses.

Doug

[DougBrennan]

Nick,

You are not going crazy, that was me, d9090 at PP and Stars.

Pretty impressive opening salvo, huh? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I was actually pretty willing to take the risk, but one of the factors that slowed me down (not too much, obviously) was the thought that, even if I won, I was likely to carry with me a table image of "IDIOT" throughout the rest of the session.

I'm not too sure that image wasn't bourn out.

Doug

[Chief911]

Doug,

It certianly could have influenced it. But I would say it was simply bad luck.

I got a little disturbed when my KK allin didnt hold up vs A3o. I am surprised you bubbled out there. You were in fairly good position when I went out in 5th.

Nick

[augie00]

Whether you fold or call depends on a few factors. You implied that your opponent has you covered, but how big is your stack? How big is your opponent's stack?

You're still in round 1, so assuming that you've got around T1000, you'd be calling 910 to win a pot of 165 with 15 outs twice.

Against a better flush draw you're a dog, against kings up or a set you're about even money, and against nothing you're a favorite. From the BB your opponents range of hands could be: any two cards.

Raising such a tiny amount here is worse than calling, I think. You're not going to take it down with such a tiny raise. It may have been more advantageous for you to just call and let your opponents in behind you, giving you better odds to chase this draw. While your flush isn't pat, if you make your straight it will be the nuts.

I'll admit, the weak lead is a big confusing, but once he plays back at you you should just lay it down. My guess is that he sensed that you were trying to steal it on the flop with a draw and decided to play his big hand a bit faster.

It's not worth risking your whole tournament life for such a tiny pot and a draw.

Fold.

[NorCalJosh]

yeah, if he'd held top pair or aces, you would have been like a 56-43% favorite or something like that, i know, i did the math when my pocket queens went up against an open ended straight and flush draw and lost=p

[Chief911]

Augie,

I have to disagree with your assessment of his T30 bet into the pot to lead out.

I actually love to do this move when in early or late position with this kind of draw (Although usually I'll do it with an AXs flush draw) to build a pot that people are going to have a harder time getting away from, or want to bluff at. That can sometimes be uncomfortable as it sometimes leads to a bigger turn bet from someone than I want to call if I did not hit my draw, but I still like the big pots with draws to the nuts.

Nick

[Jason Strasser]

Doug,

I don't get your flop raise. Why are you trying to push people out of the pot? Your raise is too small to win the pot on the flop. The only possible point is that the raise may allow you to check behind on the turn. But I really don't get your small raise.

Without doing the math, I'd say your call was probably very slightly EV. In this spot, your flop play wouldn't change much, I just don't get why you are raising a wimpy amount here. I either make it around 125, and check behind on the turn, or I flat call and invite four way action with a hand that very much likes 4-way action.

-Jason