Notebook of a Gamer: "Turtling"

[Python49]

gg no re, bm t.t -_-;;

You guys suck at SC from the conversation I'm seeing.

[Python49]

i concur

zerg rush T_T kekekeke [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I'm almost positive the term turtling comes from 2d fighting games and not any of the games mentioned.

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Kind of on topic, but I first heard of turtling from Street Fighter where players generally stay away from the opponent timing small hits or combos and slowly chipping away at their opponent's life bar.

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This is exactly what one of my friends told me when I pointed this essay out to him. He also said that was the first place he heard the term "pitbulling"...I love it, I've never heard that one but I'm pretty sure I know exactly what it means. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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This thread is really interesting to me being a long-time Tekken player. After I got into poker, and was still playing Tekken heavily (I don't any more, as I am now Old), it dawned on me that I would intuitively analyse Tekken decisions on the fly using a kind of game EV metric similar to poker. For example, if my opponent has given me an opening, and I'm considering whether to SS+launch+juggle, or throw. SS+launch+juggle does 60hp dmg and I give myself a ~40% chance of getting the launcher in to start the combo. Throw does 35hp dmg and I'm ~80% to hit with that. So (60*0.4)-(35*0.8) = Throw is +4hp EV.

My own and my opponent's remaining hp is a factor in the decision (the equivalent of stack sizes in no-limit tournaments, maybe?): if I am considering one of the two options above, and I have 1hp remaining and my opponent has 60hp, it becomes like +cEV and +$EV - the throw is the +hp EV decision, but in this case it's more +game EV to go for the juggle, as I can get the opponent with the throw and then will likely lose anyway, whereas 40% of the time, the juggle wins me the match.

Metagaming also plays a part. If in the example above I go for the juggle 100% of the time, as time passes EV(juggle) decreases and EV(throw) increases, as my opponent gets a better 'read' on my one-dimensional play. Mix-ups in Tekken are essential and it's not uncommon to find yourself thinking on the 2nd or 3rd level when considering how to attack or defend, and sometimes doing exactly what your opponent should 'expect' you to do in a given situation is the most surprising play of all (like fastplaying a monster, perhaps).

Anyway bit of a ramble and not all that on-topic but hey, I enjoyed writing it / thinking about it.

great read, but i disagree entirely. with your entire analysis, both for poker and otherwise =P

Turtling is a legitimate strategy for most games, if used correctly its generally used to wear down the opponent and basically play a longer game that is more likely to be won by the turtler. (although its true that most newbies do revert to this style when they arent sure what they are doing.)

i dont really play strategy games, but i know that the initial concept for these games were set up on an RPS type system.

basically there was three strategies a player can employ:
FAST - MEDIUM - SLOW

Whenever any FAST-FAST matchup or similar occured the better player would win, however, an advantage would otherwise be given to the player who used the strategy that best counteracted his opponents strategy.

FAST beats SLOW
MEDIUM beats FAST
SLOW beats MEDIUM

Fast entails an early rush, with all money spent on small guys, so against a slow teching type player the rusher is able to bring down their base quickly before they can set up enough defense; meanwhile the fast player continues the attack while gaining more resources and armies around the map.

Medium is a balance of fast and slow, some defence yet also a fair bit of money on tech and resource development. when against a fast rushing player they are able to have just enough defensive troops to hold out the initial attacks, whilst in the mid-late game their advanced tech will be able to overpower the rusher who has used up their resources on now dead troops which are now wasted, the only option for the fast player is to switch to a medium style, but will now be significantly behind.

Slow is as said the player that sits back, and techs, gradually building the best troops and defences. However, a medium player doesn’t invest enough in initial attacks and as such cant take advantage of the slow players vulnerability. By the time the 2 armies really go to war the slow player’s armies and resources will have the same one-up on the medium player that the medium player had on the fast player in the mid-late game.

Of course new strategy games Im sure are way more complicated than this and so the concept is outdated, but that’s how it was originally supposed to be.

Fighting games are based on this RPS idea as well, the initial basics where, when getting up from an attack:
ATTACK beats THROW
THROW beats BLOCK
BLOCK beats ATTACK (because the blocker is able to counteract easily)

The ‘blocker’ idea here is where the ‘turtler’ gains the advantage. They are able to sit back and allow the attacker to open themselves up while doing minimal (chip) damage, then blast them away once the attacker finishes their attack. In fact in many fighting games today, the turtler is generally considered the superior strategy:

Marvel vs Capcom 2 = Sentinel, Storm, Spiral (all effective turtlers)
Tekken 5 = Marduk
SF series = Zangief, Ryu, Ken, Sakura


This is similar to how a turtling tactic works in MTTs for poker.

The turtler is able to sit back and fold out of pots earlier, manipulating their metagame image to a point where they are seen as weak/tight by the early loose aggressive players.

They then have the patience to wait for a really good hand to sit back and are able to just check/call, check/call and sandbag their way to huge pots that sacrificing small pots early has given them the power to gain. Eventually the players that were trying to push the turtler around become more and more wary of their checks and sandbagging until they get as much respect as any TAG on the table.

Of course in modern poker, similar to how the Fast strategy game player must switch their game in the mid-late stages, the turtler must also adopt a LAG or at least TAG strategy as the blinds get bigger and the players get more desperate and fewer in number in order to have any chance to win.

However if they do know how to make this switch and have an expert (I would argue it’s a harder style to play effectively than solid TAGGing) understanding of the game, the turtling strategy is one that already has good application, and as more and more players get more and more ridiculously LAGGy in the earlier stages of MTTs (it’s a trend) the turtling strategy has the potential to eventually become the rock to the Loose aggressive players scissors.

Depending on how large the blinds are and how many people are at your table, the poker game changes accordingly.

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Very good post, the Starcraft and Magic examples really drive your point home.

Thanks!

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I feel exactly the same way - I am a high level Starcraft player (if anyone wants to talk strategy or play some games please feel free to PM me, I'm sure you all are better at poker than me) and played competitive Magic in the past (for those who are familiar with the game, Judgement to early Mirrodin, RG Beats / Mirari's Wake were my favorite decks.)

I think the real point is to really be relentless and take risks - the cliche is certainly right - "The best offense is the best defense". If your opponent is forced to always be on the defensive, it will be difficult for him to actually be aggressive towards you. I really do not have any sage poker advice I can say, but I can elaborate on the MTG and Starcraft examples.

Just like in a poker table, you can identify the relative skill of a Starcraft player within the first 5 minutes (I have an idea as soon as I enter his base with a scouting worker what kind of game I am in for), and indeed, most games are lost or won through opening game (at least in the mid/low-high skill levels).

It often hinges on one player taking a risk (to gain some sort of advantage, whether it be in technology or minerals), the other player not realizing the other players risk, and by not adapting, loses due to attrition and in the long run.

Similarly, in Magic, just as players in poker need to adapt to loose and tight players, a good magic player must identify their metagame (which is, what other decks are played in the area). If there are a lot of decks that rely on a certain concept, you may want to tweak your opposing deck to be stronger vs that sort of player. Although there is often one _best_ play in Magic, there are many close calls that really turns the odds of victory in your favor.

Ironically, I quit Magic after losing in a tournament I got deep in becuase I got "unlucky" twice. I then switched to Starcraft, where I felt the luck factor was less prevalent, and now here I am playing limit poker! What are the chances, or should I say odds, of that?