Stop and go with KK

[Ghazban]

This is literally CO's first hand at the table and he's not in my database so I am read-free. How do you like this line?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed) converter

Button ($238.15)
SB ($111.9)
BB ($45.1)
Hero ($202.05)
UTG+1 ($196)
UTG+2 ($154.8)
MP1 ($373.35)
MP2 ($177.25)
MP3 ($88.15)
CO ($200)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls $8, <font color="#CC3333">CO (poster) raises to $23</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls $17, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($61) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $40</font>

My thinking here is that my range of hands (i.e. things that would raise in EP and call a reraise) is wider than his (i.e. things that reraise preflop). My perceived range (I say "perceived" because, though he doesn't know it, I won't raise any ace other than AK in this position most of the time) contains more hands that have an ace in them than his does, therefore I can bet the ace as a scare card and put him to a difficult decision if he is holding KK-TT. If he raises, I can fold with a high level of confidence that I'm beat. If I check and call, I have no idea where I'm at and, if I check/fold, I'm folding the best hand when he is autobetting QQ-TT.

[schwza]

how about a plan of check-calling one bet? i may have gotten a little carried away with this line, but it seems right here. i doubt JJ bets twice here, but it also lets you extract a little value from JJ. it also lets you see if you pick up a club draw on the turn.

[DoomSlice]

Me no likey, against most people, everything but a pair of aces will be folded, and against tricky opponents they'll realize that you're going to be check-raising with AK most of the time since CO showed aggression preflop.

Check-call one bet and see what happens on the turn, or check-raise to extract a bit of value from QQ JJ.

[jkkkk]

this play is fine, however, what do you do when the ace doesn't show its face and the board is rags? CR?

do you always play kings like this pre-flop?

[Ghazban]

On a rag board, I probably lead out and call a push. Part of the reason I didn't 3bet preflop was because of the third player involved who called my original raise. If he pushes and CO comes over the top, I have some extra information (in this case, I probably call the push as I'd expect AA to smooth call while a hand like AK/JJ might push to isolate the shortstack). If the short stack comes over the top and CO folds (I don't see this happening, but its possible), I will happily call.

Generally, I don't 3bet very many hands preflop without a specific read on the reraiser.

[ckff93]

I think you played it the way you are supposed to play it. I would try to put in the minimum amount that you could on the flop that puts your opponent on a decision. Plus if opponent has Ace rag suited, or something like that you probably just bought yourself at least one free card. If your opponent doesn't have the Ace, then he/she is hard pressed to call.

[poboy]

What range of hands do you typically expect a reraise from pf? I don't play as high as you do but without a read , a reraise to me generally means AA/KK/QQ/AK. With KK being very unlikely you are only putting pressure on 1 of those hands. This looks like a case of pushing out the hand you want to play against and giving action to the one's you don't. Of course this is very dependant on what range of hands your opponent will reraise with, if you think it could be wider than I like your line. Without ever having played a hand with villian I would tend to err on the side of caution. JMO

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
What range of hands do you typically expect a reraise from pf? I don't play as high as you do but without a read , a reraise to me generally means AA/KK/QQ/AK. With KK being very unlikely you are only putting pressure on 1 of those hands. This looks like a case of pushing out the hand you want to play against and giving action to the one's you don't. Of course this is very dependant on what range of hands your opponent will reraise with, if you think it could be wider than I like your line. Without ever having played a hand with villian I would tend to err on the side of caution. JMO

[/ QUOTE ]

There is definitely validity to your post and your way of thinking. However, think about this, too. If the reraise comes from AA, KK, QQ, and AK exactly (meaning he will always reraise with only those hands and no others), the distribution before the flop is 6 ways to have AA, 1 way to have KK, 6 ways to have QQ, and 8 ways to have KK. However, once there's an ace on the flop, now there are only 2 ways to have AA and 6 ways to have AK. Now there's only 15 possible hands he could have (because he can't have any of the permutations of AA or AK that use the A that appeared on the board) and 7 of them (the 1 KK and the 6 QQ's) won't want to call a bet on the flop. If he folds those 7 hands to a flop bet, I pick up the pot half the time.

[xorbie]

IMO, bad. What are you getting to fold here? Hands you beat. What are you getting to call/raise here? Hands that beat you.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, bad. What are you getting to fold here? Hands you beat. What are you getting to call/raise here? Hands that beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I'm setting my own price to find out. If I check/call on the flop (as others have suggested), I don't know where I'm at and I have no good way of finding out. The bet's purpose is not to get a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold; it is to find out if my hand is good or not.