A hand that bugs me

phish · #1 11-14-2005, 10:28 AM

Think this is my first hand post. I can usually think thru a hand myself, but this one bugs me to no end:

3 handed Stars 1/2 game. Villain is Piejay.

button folds. Piejay calls sb. I check with J6.

flop is 764 w/ one diamond.

he checks, I bet, he raises, I reraise, he caps.

turn is 5 of diamonds.

he bets, i raise, he calls.

river is Q of diamonds.

he bets, i fold.

I think the flop bet and reraise and call the cap is pretty standard. No big deal.

On the turn, I raise just in case he was overplaying a straight draw on the flop and has now hit his 5. Want to punish him. Didn't really like it because of the Stars 1/2 semi-regulars, Piejay is actually one of the less tricky ones.

His bet on the river bugs me. Would he bet a five here as a desperation bluff? I though it was more likely that he had a straight and didn't want to scare me off with a three bet on the turn. Or had the idiot end of the straight and thought he could bet the river since the diamond was a scare card that would prevent me from raising even if I had the 8. Or he made a flush.

I folded but the whole hand has really bugged me. (Maybe I should've called just to see how badly I butchered this hand and at least KNOW one way or the other.)

Comments, anyone?

DcifrThs · #2 11-14-2005, 10:34 AM

i think on the turn id just call him down. at least from what i remember of his play he may be one of the less tricky ones but he's definately still tricky. this one is tricky b/c of the river card though.

really, the only hand you beat here is Ax5x. or 96 no diamond...

in fact the turn raise is good for that reason, id want to call him down as stated above but i think your line of raising the turn and folding the river wins the most. he will rarely fold a better hand but its worth a consideration to raise the river. if he calls you've just earned your self some extra late street action for a few rounds. just be aware of your future river spots vs. piejay after you fold this.

Barron

phish · #3 11-14-2005, 11:04 AM

Dcfrths,

Thanks for the comments. Though from your comments, I get the feeling you thought there were 4 diamonds on the river rather than 3. There were only three, does this change your thoughts at all.

DcifrThs · #4 11-14-2005, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dcfrths,

Thanks for the comments. Though from your comments, I get the feeling you thought there were 4 diamonds on the river rather than 3. There were only three, does this change your thoughts at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh [censored].

call.

EDIT: and here's why imo: you could be semi bluffing a draw, and so could he. sure you feel foolish paying off a big hand or two pair, but he could just as easily have the draw to the diamonds with the 5 and the 4 is a great card for him to bet. but i dont think he has the straight. id call piejay's river bet here. definately makes the hand tougher though b/c its a lot closer.

Barron

phish · #5 11-14-2005, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dcfrths,

Thanks for the comments. Though from your comments, I get the feeling you thought there were 4 diamonds on the river rather than 3. There were only three, does this change your thoughts at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh [censored].

call.

EDIT: and here's why imo: you could be semi bluffing a draw, and so could he. sure you feel foolish paying off a big hand or two pair, but he could just as easily have the draw to the diamonds with the 5 and the 4 is a great card for him to bet. but i dont think he has the straight. id call piejay's river bet here. definately makes the hand tougher though b/c its a lot closer.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh,... the river card was the third diamond. queen of diamonds. The turn card put the four liner out there, not the river card.

If the turn card was the third diamond and the river put the four liner (sounds like what you're thinking), then I hear what you're saying.

New thoughts?

DcifrThs · #6 11-14-2005, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dcfrths,

Thanks for the comments. Though from your comments, I get the feeling you thought there were 4 diamonds on the river rather than 3. There were only three, does this change your thoughts at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh [censored].

call.

EDIT: and here's why imo: you could be semi bluffing a draw, and so could he. sure you feel foolish paying off a big hand or two pair, but he could just as easily have the draw to the diamonds with the 5 and the 4 is a great card for him to bet. but i dont think he has the straight. id call piejay's river bet here. definately makes the hand tougher though b/c its a lot closer.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh,... the river card was the third diamond. queen of diamonds. The turn card put the four liner out there, not the river card.

If the turn card was the third diamond and the river put the four liner (sounds like what you're thinking), then I hear what you're saying.

New thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

i give up. thats my new thought lol. for some reason i just couldn't read this hand for [censored].

so the TURN comes the 5 for 7654 and piejay bets out. there ARE two diamonds there correct?

i think raising this turn isn't the best play b/c he knows an 8 wouldn't raise immediately a good portion of the time. neither would a hand like 73. so you're raise tends to show more weakness than strength. at this point id just call him down. id expect to lose a majority of the time, but plenty enough to still call the 2 bets.

Barron

phish · #7 11-14-2005, 12:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]

so the TURN comes the 5 for 7654 and piejay bets out. there ARE two diamonds there correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. And he bets out after capping the flop.

Question is: could he have capped the flop with a hand like 95. Called the turn raise trying to hit an 8. And figured since he's going to call the river anyways, he might as well bet it. His image of me is not as a river folder (at least I don't think so).

Not sure why, of all the hands I play, this one bugs me so much. Maybe because something about it doesn't feel right and I think I may have made a $2000 mistake.

Should've avoided getting fancy and simply called down.

phish · #8 11-15-2005, 12:39 AM

Bump.

C'mon. Someone else posts a hand and gets 8000 replies. I post a hand and i get two. I even welcome flames. Tell me I suck.

DcifrThs · #9 11-15-2005, 12:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bump.

C'mon. Someone else posts a hand and gets 8000 replies. I post a hand and i get two. I even welcome flames. Tell me I suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

many people dont play this high.

many people dont know EDIT: piejay or how he plays.

going more bets on the flop vs. not going more bets on the flop/ raising the turn vs. calling down are the two issues.

as long as he's not on tilt its tough. its a tricky hand that nobody can come in and say "this is what you do, here's why"

if you notice, the problem with the large threads is that most are just simple hands. the simpler the hand, the more replies b/c people feel good about themselves solvinga puzzle...even if its for ages 4 and up.

also, some of the best posters here wont post in this thread b/c they hold back their research and opinions based on experience beating these games.

those issues lead to posts like yours getting less attention. please dont concuse replies with quality.

Barron

Brian R · #10 11-15-2005, 01:28 AM

I think you played this hand well however, many times (40-50% of the time)I'd only call the turn and payoff on the river. The times I raise the turn and get bet into on the river I call only like 25% of the time. Do you mind sharing your screename? Piejay is very observant and depending upon who you are, he value bets the river a lot to counter act the raise turn/free showdown move. Nothing is more frustersating than paying him on when he value bets a hand just a bit better than yours.

Brian R