Three Bet or just Call

Live 4/8
I am UTG, raise with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], next to act called two cold, everyone else folded to the blinds who both called, 4 people saw the flop:
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Both blinds check to me, I bet, Fold, small blind (who was pretty loose, especially from the blinds) called, big blind folded. Heads up to the turn:
T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Check, I Bet, Call. River
8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Check, I bet, the other guy raises. My read on this guy wasn't the best, but i did know he was pretty loose passive. I couldn't rule out him having a 97, but i thought it was very unlikely so there is no way i'm folding to two bets. I figure i have three lines; call, three bet and call four bets, or three bets and fold to a four bet. What is my best line?

I'm a fan of just flat calling here, if you 3 bet and you get raised theres a good chance you are beat, what hands are going to 4 bet you on the river that you are beating - A-6 and A-8 possibly, Flat calling here will let you see his hand and will save you 2 bb if you are beat. You can rule out sets here possibly but the straight cards are what scares you, from my experience loose players in live small stakes games LOVE calling all sorts of bets with Q-J.

Just to recap the action, you've got a "pretty loose" SB who has check-called you to the river, then all of a sudden check-raises you on the river.

I think that you should 3-bet here, but if the SB 4-bets, you should just call. If SB 4-bets, you should call rather than fold b/c the pot has become so large that folding 10+BB pot to 1 bet is unsound limit poker strategy. Any likely hand that he has that would beat you would probably have been check-raised on the turn. If he had a set, A-K for top 2 pair, or an Ace-high straight, most players would have check-raised the turn. It's very unlikely that he's got 7-9 for a runner-runner straight, and it is equally unlikely that he would check-call you down to the river with pocket 8s.

Having said that, his most likely holdings are 2 pair, and probably not A-K. I would put SB on either A-8 or K-8, both of which you can beat. Because you are likely to have the best hand given the fact that he didn't check-raise the turn (the classic street for check-raises), I would 3-bet, thinking that your two pair are good.

BTW, what did you end up doing, and was SB holding?

[sean c]

I call. I don't think your hand is anywhere near strong enough to 3-bet a loose passive live player and i am certainly not folding on the off chance he has a worse two pair or is just making some desperation stab at the pot.

[W. Deranged]

This is really so read dependent that I think no general guidelines can be given. As you said, there are times where any of the three possible options (call, three-bet/fold, three-bet/call) are viable. (Folding is never viable in my opinion).

I think calling may be fine here. A river check-raise in a live low-limit game is a huge, huge thing an often indicates the nuts or close to it. Also, there can be some advantages in keeping the fish happy by not playing the river super-aggressively in marginal situations. Calling and not three-betting also assures that you get to see his hand and that no one gets to see yours (not that they could usually make anything of it, but maybe...)

He could also have QJ. I would just call and expect to lose more than half the time.

I thought for a second about the three bet, said out loud to the table, this has to be A-8, but still just called. A bit of a tilt move on my part, i was getting some bad beats and didn't want to spew to this hand if I was beat. He had K-8, i won.

[The Dude]

You should definately 3-bet here. He didn't put in a raise on the flop or turn, so it's less likely he has 66 or QJ, although those are both possibilities. His most likely hand based on the action is going to be 2-pair w/ an 8, A8, K8, or perhaps even 86. You beat all these.

For the sake of argument, let's say you must always pay off a 4-bet, and you always lose when he 4-bets. Also, let's say he 4-bets you every time you're behind. (Which is obviously worse than real-life). He's going to pay off your 3-bet with any made hand, so if you're ahead 2/3 of the time, you should 3-bet. (You lose two bets when you're behind and win one bet when you're ahead.) IMO, you're vs a lower 2pair hand here more than 2/3 of the time. Factor in the times when he 4-bets and you're ahead and when he doesn't 4-bet a better hand, and you probably need to be ahead only 60% of the time, which is even better for you.

Raise it up.

Definitely not a fold, but I'm wavering between 3 betting and calling.

I'm leaning towards 3 betting. And calling a 4 bet.