blind war w/ two great players

[DcifrThs]

Player 1: he is the sb and is very good, aggressive, capable of making thin calls and riases/bets on later streets w/ about the correct frequency

Player 2: he is the bb and plays tons of hands vs. player 1, they both know each other very well and play at about the same level.

100/200.

p1 opens in sb w/ K9, p2 calls in bb w/ K8.

flop is T84. p1 bets p2 raises p1 calls.

turn is J. p1 checks p2 checks.

river is J. p1 checks p2 bets p1 calls.

thoughts? comments? bet the turn p1 or p2? river call by p1?

-Barron

[flawless_victory]

i hate this "great players" bs. everyone is an effing GREAT PLAYER. NO. just say they both play well. i think p2 should bet the turn (DUH.), but the check is ok... p1s river call is absolutely awful... no effing way in a million years is K high is good in that spot.

[Jeff W]

P2 should bet the turn.

P1 should fold the river. P2 isn't playing a worse hand than K9-hi in this manner. The J completed all semi-bluffing hands.

[Nigel]

Repeating what's been said..

The J makes this a fold IMO. Turn should have been bet.

Nigel

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
P2 should bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
If P1 check raises on bluffs at about the right frequency, why? ... esp if it'll inbluce river bluffs or weak calls when P1 would otherwise fold to turn bet?

[ QUOTE ]
P1 should fold the river. P2 isn't playing a worse hand than K9-hi in this manner. The J completed all semi-bluffing hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

69, 67, 65 etc are few whiffs that P2 can have.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Repeating what's been said..

The J makes this a fold IMO. Turn should have been bet.

Nigel

[/ QUOTE ]

you guys need to get out of your little box.

if somebody raises with the correct frequency on the turn, what is your ev by betting....ZERO!!! if he's doing it correctly then it doesn't matter wtf you do, fold, call because its worth 0 to you.

so by passing on a 0 ev spot you can maybe gain a large fraction of a bb from a call on the later street or induce a bluff.

stating blindly that betting the turn is a must is very narrowminded.

on the river why can't p2 have raised for a free card? and decided to bet the river as a bluff? the jack virtually assures he doesn't have a jack. from p1's perspective a T or 8 or even 4 would bet the turn...a 4 would be very likely to bet the turn ... so from p1's perspective its hard to see what p2 has so he calls thinking K high may be ggood w/ some of those hands that have enough to raise for a free card.

-Barron

[NLSoldier]

I dont like P1s river call. After the second jack comes, P1 knows taht P2 knows that he isnt going to fold an ace or king on the river. And since p1 knows that p2 knows this, I think he has to fold when P2 still bets. Unless of course, they are both thinking on one level higher than me....

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
if somebody raises with the correct frequency on the turn, what is your ev by betting....ZERO!!! if he's doing it correctly then it doesn't matter wtf you do, fold, call because its worth 0 to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can do no better than play perfectly against your hand range, though. He can't assume you have K8s and play perfectly against that hand. Also, in practice it's much more difficult to play perfectly(create 0 EV decisions) because plays must be balanced for all streets and all future hands.

Your 0 EV argument can apply to the river as well. If p2 is a great player, then it shouldn't matter to p1's hand range whether he calls or folds. However, K9-high is probably on the lower end of the range that p1 holds in this spot, so his call is probably -EV.

Edit: To clarify my argument. What if p2 has Q9 here? P1 may be able to play perfectly against p2's hand range by check-raising with the optimal frequency, but he is not playing optimally against that specific hand.

[Nate tha' Great]

I don't like the river call.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
69, 67, 65 etc are few whiffs that P2 can have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mightn't he bet the turn with those hands pretty often?