Hand vs Josh. / Sthief / Moderator of doom

[sthief09]

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don't like the turn raise at all. It just lets him fold 5x and 6x. Now if you don't think he would check/call or bet the river with these hands thats not really a problem and you'd rather him fold his 5 outer. If you think he'd check/call or bet the river with those hands you really want him in

Thats also a flop some guys like to checkraise Arag on. Arag has 3 outs against you so if you don't think josh is gonna bet or call the river with arag (which he wont) then him folding that is fine.

You gotta fold to a 3bet but you sacrifice some 2-out equity which sucks slightly.

Flop 3bet is good if you think he will call down with his 5x and 6x hands thinking you 3bet for free card or something like that. If he will do this I don't think he's gonna call the river so 3betting only gets you one more sb over calling down (depending on what josh does on the river with a pair of 5s or 6s)


I just call down all the way and hope he bets or calls the river with a small pair

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IMO, if I can fold a 5 or 6 to him, then either I'm not semi-bluffing or bluffing the flop enough, or he isn't bluffing the turn enough. I'm checkraising the flop with top pair, a set, a draw, bottom pair, middle pair, two pair, etc. TT is looking nice against this range. he also should know that some of my range includes weak made hands, A high, and semi-bluffs, and maybe occasionally pure bluffs, which means that I will have some better hands that can fold to a raise when he doesn't have anything, and in turn that makes me have to pay off more lightly to compensate.

[TStoneMBD]

on a somewhat related note, josh, if you were going to call the turn raise with a nonqueen pair what do you think about a turn 3bet/checkfold river line?

[sthief09]

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on a somewhat related note, josh, if you were going to call the turn raise with a nonqueen pair what do you think about a turn 3bet/checkfold river line?

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I was thinking about that before if I had a hand like 99, when they were saying he should fold TT to a 3-bet. He should fold TT to a 3-bet, whcih means I should 3-bet something like A6 since if 4-bet I'm not folding many outs, I could get him to fold a better hand, if he calls it I know he has me beat (except when he decides to bluff hearts on the river, but that would be ballsy), and I make him fold a 6-outer instead of letting him either take a free showdown or vlaue bet if he hits it.

[sthief09]

87

thoughts on turn play? thoughts on river c/r attempt? I like a c/r in general but that's a bad card.

[dave44]

Posting blind.

I'm assuming Josh has a pretty wide range of hands he'd check-raise you with on this board so I like putting in a raise. Since there's not a lot of opporunities to semi-bluff this flop, I'd say Josh has air here enough to make waiting until the turn a better play. When the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falls to put some draws on the board, you want to make sure you charge him so I like the raise.

I would fold to a 3-bet for a few reasons. Among the made hands you'd raise this turn with, TT is among the weakest. Also, there's enough draws on this board that asssuming you'd raise this turn sometimes as a semi-bluff, Josh knows you're seldom folding to a 3-bet.

This river card sucks. I'd put Josh on hearts, a missed straight draw, a weak queen, trips 6's, or a weaker pair. Without doing the math I don't think its that weaker pair enough when you get called to make a bet profitable so I like the check.

Nice hand.

[DeathDonkey]

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out of curiosity, how many rivers were you betting?

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Hmm, definitely betting a queen, ten, 2, 3, 4. Hard to think of what else there is value in betting, maybe an ace or king but I can't see how you pay that off with a small pair.

I love your post because what you describe is exactly what I want my opponents to think - that they can't just checkraise every good flop and expect to not get punished for it later. I do have a hard time with the ones who 3 bet the turn more liberally, but I think I catch them enough times with good hands that they are risking too much if they bluff 3 bet more than rarely.

When I saw your hand I thought it made a ton of sense, but now I think you should 3 bet the turn for the reasons others have described - basically to protect yourself in the future if you want to do an elaborate 3 bet bluff / semibluff. However in this hand you played it perfectly because with our (lack of) prior history I would have insta mucked for 3 bets. And on that river card the only way you make a bet is by donking - and I would have had to think hard about paying it off.

-DeathDonkey

[dave44]

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He should fold TT to a 3-bet, whcih means I should 3-bet something like A6 since if 4-bet I'm not folding many outs, I could get him to fold a better hand, if he calls it I know he has me beat (except when he decides to bluff hearts on the river, but that would be ballsy), and I make him fold a 6-outer instead of letting him either take a free showdown or vlaue bet if he hits it.

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On this board, the I think you can knock out 77-JJ and A9, K9 with a turn raise a decent amount, though its tough to give him credit for those hands as much as others which are much more likely. Also, he could be raising a draw here which he won't fold.

A 3-bet does haver merit though but I'd like to have a good draw. Ace-rag of hearts would be a good one, or if you'd try the flop check-raise with JT that'd be a good one, too. A6 I'm not sure about- I think you'd be better off calling down or calling and folding the river.

[dave44]

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87

thoughts on turn play? thoughts on river c/r attempt? I like a c/r in general but that's a bad card.

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I'm confused why you wouldn't auto 3-bet this. I don't see how a river check-raise is immediately better and once you start factoring in that the turn raise with the goods is necessary to cover your turn 3-bets (which I commented on above) this looks easy.

[dave44]

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on a somewhat related note, josh, if you were going to call the turn raise with a nonqueen pair what do you think about a turn 3bet/checkfold river line?

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Just saying non-queen pair is too vague IMO here. Many of Josh's non-queen pairs are strong enough to take to showdown here, so why forgo that EV? If you drew the line and said that pairs below X are not profitable to call the turn with, those would be the ones you'd want to bluff 3-bet with (I'd prefer a non-pocket pair though so you have more outs). I also like the turn 3-bet with a draw that can't win unimproved.

[sthief09]

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87

thoughts on turn play? thoughts on river c/r attempt? I like a c/r in general but that's a bad card.

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I'm confused why you wouldn't auto 3-bet this. I don't see how a river check-raise is immediately better and once you start factoring in that the turn raise with the goods is necessary to cover your turn 3-bets (which I commented on above) this looks easy.

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because i dont want him folding his weaker hands to a 3-bet. he is usually drawing dead to me. sometimes i miss value but a set is going 4 bets on the river unless it's a heart, 8, or 7 (definite drawback). sometimes he has AK and catches and bets instead of checking behind on the river (though id donk an A and maybe a K since he might not pay off a c/r with QJ, mgiht not value bet something like TT, and i get 3 bets from KQ), sometimes he will river a set and give me action instead of him folding the turn. note that most of the time it works out exactly the same. i get 2 on the turn and 2 on the river instead of 3 and 1. when he takes a free sd on the river he usually wasnt paying off a turn 3-bet anyway. the big difference is i can let him catch if he was raising for a free sd