s

one thing though: lets say sometimes they (5x and PP) call down, sometimes they peel the flop and fold the turn.

when you just call down, intending to bet the river if checked to:

you are guaranteed 2.5BB.

when you raise the flop and then bet the streets and they call down, you get 3BB, 0.5BB better than just calling it down yourself

but when you raise the flop and they peel and fold, you only manage 1 BB, 1.5BB worse than just calling it down yourself.

this means that in order to be a better play, you need to have them call down >75% of the time.

this doesnt even bother to factor in the times the vil has an ace, where we cant lay and lose a lot more than the 2.5BB we would have lost by just calling down to begin with.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise this flop. Smaller pairs are calling you down, and if they have an A you can get away from it without putting in 2BB on the bigger streets. Also, you'd never play an A like this if you had one, so you're just making yourself more readable by calling down here.

When there is a flush draw on the flop the hand is not a WA/WB situation. You can't fold the river against an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
I think raising the flop for value is almost certainly wrong. My game would be pretty damn aggro if my standard read for an unknown is that they'll call down here with a hand like 66; I'm not buying it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what you're saying here. Don't you want to be called down by 66?

[ QUOTE ]
I just think the missed value, protection, deception, and unreadability is more important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this statement. True it is higher risk against an unknown, but in general you'll get called down often enough with worse hands. Also at this level, an ace will fire back allowing you to get rid of it before it gets too expensive, but the drawing hands will usually go into call down mode.

[shant]

When you have AK and this exact action takes place, how do you play the hand? If I raise QQ, AK, flush draws, and flopped full houses on this flop, I am setting myself up to be paid off a lot more. I'm not sure if opponents at this level are paying attention but as you move up this is more and more important.

Also, I don't have much problem laying this down if I'm 3-bet. The times they do 3-bet a 5x hand, a flush draw, or 77 are so infrequent I don't think you need to worry about it. It is unfortunate you don't have a read now, but sooner or later a player making plays like that will make himself known to you and you will be able to take advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just think the missed value, protection, deception, and unreadability is more important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this statement. True it is higher risk against an unknown, but in general you'll get called down often enough with worse hands. Also at this level, an ace will fire back allowing you to get rid of it before it gets too expensive, but the drawing hands will usually go into call down mode.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate this reasoning. who is to say that at this level a flush draw doesnt fire back, or another hand you have outs against?

the thing is, based on his hand range, we KNOW calling down is +ev

folding when ahead is a million times worse than calling when behind here.

[Buckmulligan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what you're saying here. Don't you want to be called down by 66?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just saying that I was skeptical at the time whether or not a bet would only fold waeker ahnds that might bet later or get 3 bet by better ones - I was not assuming that 66 would call down. I guess I'm wrong though.

I still don't think that my hand is very readable. If I were villain without an ace, I might very well fear a checkraise from a slowplayed ace hand on the turn - maybe even the river. It was the fact that he didn't fear the checkraise that made me a little scared at the river, although I would never fold that there.

[SCfuji]

interesting. thanks ill think about this.

[Shillx]

I kinda like a raise against a typical player. You will very often get reraised when 2 aces are on board and he has one. With just one ace it gets tougher because his A-crap doesn't look so good when you raise the flop. I like calling against better players because they have a good counter strategy. Namely it is to call the raise and then check/call the turn and check/call (or bet) the river. You can probably make a good information raise here though against a typical player.

[ QUOTE ]
i hate this reasoning. who is to say that at this level a flush draw doesnt fire back, or another hand you have outs against?

the thing is, based on his hand range, we KNOW calling down is +ev

folding when ahead is a million times worse than calling when behind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said against an unknown the risk of folding when ahead goes up, but in my limited experience the flush draws generally slow down on a board like this when someone pushes back. I'm willing to take that risk.