TT prays for a good turn card and gets...

[livinitup0]

3 bet the flop. I smell a free card attempt with this board, you'll see it way too much at 1/2 6max.

[Aaron W.]

I completely agree with everyone who believes I'm in the lead on the flop.

The question is whether I can gain more by bloating the pot now (3 extra SB in the pot) or by waiting to see what the turn brings and waiting to get some bets in with a higher equity. Obviously, it will be completely impossible to protect from 6-out overcard draws because the pot is already too big.

Notice that I've got the preflop raiser coldcalling two bets on the flop, SB coldcalled three bets preflop is also coldcalling two bets, and the button who coldcalled three bets preflop is raising me. What sorts of hands do you put them on?

[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with everyone who believes I'm in the lead on the flop.

The question is whether I can gain more by bloating the pot now (3 extra SB in the pot) or by waiting to see what the turn brings and waiting to get some bets in with a higher equity. Obviously, it will be completely impossible to protect from 6-out overcard draws because the pot is already too big.

Notice that I've got the preflop raiser coldcalling two bets on the flop, SB coldcalled three bets preflop is also coldcalling two bets, and the button who coldcalled three bets preflop is raising me. What sorts of hands do you put them on?

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Hi Aaron-

I put these guys on exactly two cards. Who knows if they have a straight draw, a made straight, a pair + a draw, overs or an overpair? They could have any of that. I have a problem with your flop line because you don't really know what cards are safe. Pretty much the only real "safe" turn card here is a 2, hopefully a 2 that turns the board rainbow. The way I count it, that's exactly one card in the deck and definitely not enough equity for you to wait.

You need to 3-bet this flop to define your hand and get more money in while you're probably ahead. That way, you can bet the turn and confidently fold if someone raises you because it's unlikely to be a bluff in this large, multiway pot with a semiscary board.

Betting the turn also has the advantage of forcing out overcards or other hands that have legit outs against you (Ax, where x is a 4, 5 or 6). If you check this turn, you're often going to be bet into on the river by missed overs, worse pairs and other stuff as well as made hands. Get the money in while you might be ahead.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is whether I can gain more by bloating the pot now (3 extra SB in the pot) or by waiting to see what the turn brings and waiting to get some bets in with a higher equity.

[/ QUOTE ]
With a board of 456, you're dreading any 3 or 7, and any 2 or 8 is also bad. Also, overs to your tens aren't that great either. So what are you waiting on? A 9? I three bet the flop and lead the turn (yes, even that turn). Given that you didn't, I donk the turn. If someone is sitting on a 7, they'll wake up and you can play some poker (I think I'd fold). Letting the turn get checked through is a disaster for this hand.

House, I just wanna say I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] your new avatar. Must find me a good one before Xmas.

[Alexthegreat]

Aaron

If I watched you play this hand and saw you donk the turn after just calling the flop raise, I would pretty confidently put you on a medium strength overpair....The players you are up against probably aren't that good, but they saw you 3-bet preflop, so even they won't believe you have a straight.....Either Bet/Fold, or Check and see, but bet/call is the worst option


As others have said, it's best to just 3-bet the flop and keep pushing....The pot is getting big and it's multiway, so you should play your hand as fast as you can....you don't have to worry about making up any bets, just winning the pot. Heads up or 3 handed pots are much better spots to slowplay your hand for the purpose of added bets on the big streets

[Aaron W.]

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The way I count it, that's exactly one card in the deck and definitely not enough equity for you to wait.

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If there's not enough equity on the turn for me to wait and see, then what am I doing bloating the pot on the flop when I'm going to regret it most of the time on the turn?

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The way I count it, that's exactly one card in the deck and definitely not enough equity for you to wait.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's not enough equity on the turn for me to wait and see, then what am I doing bloating the pot on the flop when I'm going to regret it most of the time on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's not enough "safe" cards to wait to pump the turn, because raising the turn opens you up to a 3-bet with any variety of creative holdings, and with this flop you cannot gauge what a safe turn card will be. You probably are ahead now and there are many "safe" cards left in the deck, but you won't know that if they come so put in more money now.

[Aaron W.]

The plan was to bet the turn regardless of what falls. I would bet-fold an A, K, 8, 7, and probably a 3, and bet-think-really-hard if anything else fell (there's probably a lot of folding on those other cards, too). If someone bet into me, I'd probably have to fold.

Why didn't I 3-bet the flop? It doesn't change how the rest of the hand plays out for me. If I 3-bet the flop, I'm still bet-folding the turn on the same range of cards. I'm still going to fold most of the time if someone bets into me. Since there are lots of ways I'm going to have to give up on the turn, why continue to bloat the pot?

As for the hand itself...

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 4d Ad (two pair, eights and fours).
Hero has Tc Th (two pair, tens and eights).
Button has 9h 9c (two pair, nines and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 17.50 BB. </font>

[imported_leader]

"why continue to bloat the pot?"

Because you have the best hand most of the time. Therefore, when you win the pot you collect an extra 1.5 BB. In addition, your line makes it more likely you will be bluff raised on the turn.