Oh my!! Should I risk my TOURNAMENT LIFE!! so early?!?!?!

[WinBig]

I tried to put some #'s on the stacks because the BB figures were getting me confused. Assume the blinds are 10/15:

Before the hand the stack sizes are:
UTG+1 has 1860
MP1 has 1605
Hero has 1500

Pot is roughly 660 going to the flop and the stack sizes are now:
UTG+1 = 1650
MP1 = 1395
Hero = 1290

UTG+1 bets 495 or 3/4 of the pot and MP1 calls. I really have a hard time believing MP1 flat calls 35% of his stack here here getting 2.3 to 1 odds on a flush draw. If he has the nut flush draw a push here seems like a better play. So I think MP1 also has a big pair because his raise preflop doesn't look like a pocket pair that could hit a set on that flop. I think you have 10 outs twice to win. I push.

Yes, if MP1 is on the nut flush, pushing is the better play, but because he called I think he is a donk chasing a flush for any price, so he would not be smart enough to know to push.

-Gross

[schwza]

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The only questionable part of your line to me is the PF 2nd call. The pot odds are basically unimportant, this is a pure implied odds play. I dont love risking >10% of my stack to flop a set. I can see myself calling here quite alot, but it never feels right afterwards.

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that's not true at all. if there were not already a lot of money in the pot, i'd fold to a 10bb raise pretty quickly. it's only because there's the extra money that makes it a call. the implied odds are important, but the immediate odds are also.

[A_PLUS]

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The only questionable part of your line to me is the PF 2nd call. The pot odds are basically unimportant, this is a pure implied odds play. I dont love risking >10% of my stack to flop a set. I can see myself calling here quite alot, but it never feels right afterwards.

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that's not true at all. if there were not already a lot of money in the pot, i'd fold to a 10bb raise pretty quickly. it's only because there's the extra money that makes it a call. the implied odds are important, but the immediate odds are also.

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What I meant by this was...

The only way we are going to be seeing a turn card here 90% of the time is when we are all in (or are working our way there). It is unlikely, given that we are pretty sure we are up against AA or KK, that we are winning anything other than a HUGE pot when we win. So, relatively speaking the implied odds (84-168BBs) are much more important than the immediate odds.

Basically the play of the hand has ruled out winning a medium pot, we are either winning HUGE or losing it all.

[schwza]

right, but the money in the pot means you only need to win ~40 bb's when you hit instead of 80. (fuzzy math)

[A_PLUS]

Your right, but you will never really win anything other than 100+BB.

I did a piss poor job of describing what I meant in my OP. Basically that in this specific situation, you are gambling on a low frequency, high value event. I think it is EV (the money in the pot increases this), but I hate having to risk 15% of my stack to do it. I do it, I just hate being forced into that spot.

[woodguy]

I knew I was getting the right price to get all in with UTG+1 if my read was right. I would have 40% equity in a 245BB pot (if called by UTG+1 alone) and it would cost me 84BB's for my 98BB equity....a no brainer really.

I only knew my 40% instantly from going through this process on these boards many time, that's why these exercizes are good for all of us.

What I didn't know at the time is how much MP1's hand effected my pot equity and wasn't sure what he held.

I was suprised to see that when I ran the pokerstove #'s even if MP1 turned over AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and UTG had AA-QQ I would still have 26.6% equity in the pot, which is just 2% below being an even money call.

That's when I decided to post it, because it was the fabled "small edge, or taking the slight worst of it"

I pushed all in, UTG+1 insta called, MP1 hesitated, then folded.

Turn (245BB) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

River (245BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG+1 shows Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] MHIG

FWIW MP1 saide after the hand he had JJ.

I'm glad I pushed (obviously) and that the pot so big on the flop that calling wasn't an option as the 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would have made me pull my hair out if MP1 was still in the hand (since I didn't have a good read on what he had)

So I got action while I had a pot equity edge and got the $$$ in before the nastiest card in the deck for an overpair appeared on the turn.

Its nice when things unfold like God intended. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Regards,
Woodguy

[A_PLUS]

This hand should be put in the FAQ for all of the times a newbie asks how they become more aggressive early in the MTT.

Woodguy, you should do a little more detailed thought process on this and submit it for the magazine. Nice post

[MLG]

great hand woodguy. perfect textbook example of how to play aggresively early to build a big stack. Also, while the flush draw is a concern, I think you focused a little too much on it. He has to have called the initial bet with a flush draw 100% of the time (as opposed to some overpair) for you to lose your equity edge.

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Also, while the flush draw is a concern, I think you focused a little too much on it. He has to have called the initial bet with a flush draw 100% of the time (as opposed to some overpair) for you to lose your equity edge.

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Would you elaborate a litlle.... It's not clear for me.