Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader

[bruce]

I agree with you 100%, this is a tough hand to play. AT
is about as difficult with your stack to play as a medium
pocket pair.

After reading all the responses perhaps the best play is not to play the hand to begin with. If I had a hand like pocket Sixes or Sevens I would probably pass. However, I still think if you're going to play the hand the most effective way is with a push. With the villians large stack I don't think your raise has much of a chance of taking down the blinds. If you pushed you probably would have lost any way so it wouldn't have made any difference
anyway.

Bruce

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you 100%, this is a tough hand to play. AT
is about as difficult with your stack to play as a medium
pocket pair.

After reading all the responses perhaps the best play is not to play the hand to begin with. If I had a hand like pocket Sixes or Sevens I would probably pass. However, I still think if you're going to play the hand the most effective way is with a push. With the villians large stack I don't think your raise has much of a chance of taking down the blinds. If you pushed you probably would have lost any way so it wouldn't have made any difference
anyway.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, if you pushed, JT would definately have folded in the BB. That is very results oriented.

I agree that pushing or folding preflop was best here. However, I don't think the push is chip EV+. You are pushing into 5 players. There is about a 25% chance someone has you dominated, in which case you lose an average of 5xBB. Say you pick up the blinds the other 75% of the time and gain 1.5xBB. On average, you lose .05xBB. I may be a little off, but it is pretty close to an even gamble. The problem with pushing with AT is you get called pretty much if and only if you are dominated.

I don't think you want to gamble here. Picking up some blinds or doubling up are not particularly advantageous. Maybe let some short stacks bust out. This also goes into my "retarded" red zone theory. Maybe, it's OK to fall into the red zone where you can play more aggressively.

I am not saying just folding to move up in prizes or throw away chips to move into the red zone, but why gamble here?

Now you mention a medium pp. Pushing any pair 22-TT here is chip EV+. It is much less likely that anyone has a higher pair and you are ahead plus pot odds against AK-AQ. If you push with 22, you are unlikely to be called by 55. You have plenty of odds to push with a pp. I might fold a small pp, even though it is slightly chip EV+. I think this is a situation where you do not particularly want to make a big gamble.

I am definately pushing with 77-TT. JJ is too good to push with. I would push with 22 if it was a strategic situation where I wanted to gamble. Pushing with 22 is clearly better than pushing with ATo.

Part of the lesson here is that you just have to learn to throw away a decent hand when it doesn't help you. For example, I have improved my game by folding small pairs and AJo, KQo in early position sometimes. I used to always just limp with them. Sometimes you can represent a big hand by raising or limping with a hand like that, but in a lot of situations you are better off folding.

[PartySNGer]

This is also an interesting hand from the big stack's perspective. I think he played it rather donkishly. Pre-flop, the call is fine as the raise is under 3xBB and JT is a fairly solid hand. But on the flop, his bet is completely pointless as it accomplishes virtually nothing. It doesn't define where you're at in the hand because it's such a small bet that many players will raise just b/c it seems so weak. Then, when he does get raised, he instacalls anyway. If you were in his shoes how do you play this?

[betgo]

2nd pair is hard to play. Maybe he made a good reas on the push.

Making a small lead from the blinds with 2nd pair does seem like a poor approach. Many players (donks) believe in making a small bet with a medium hand.

Usually I would make a small lead as either a pure bluff or to get action for a set or something. However, I don't usually make gay bets like that.

I think leading out 2/3 pot, check calling, and checkraising are all reasonable choices.

I don't think JT is a good hand at all. If it wasn't suited, I probably wouldn't call a raise with it, even a small raise all the chip leader in the BB.

I think this is a better hand to make a resteal reraise with than to see a flop with. However, a big stack might prefer to try to steal the hand after the flop.

I agree villain whole style appears donkish. Villain appears to have poor style/technique/book knowledge, but is good at reads.

[bruce]

I agree with you. Folding is probably the best play.

Funny though, with a medium pocket pair my reflex usually is to fold. If I push with say, 77, and am called I'm almost always against overs or I'm dominated. If I push with AT and I'm called I may not be in great shape, but
when I'm dominated I'm in better shape.

Bruce

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you. Folding is probably the best play.

Funny though, with a medium pocket pair my reflex usually is to fold. If I push with say, 77, and am called I'm almost always against overs or I'm dominated. If I push with AT and I'm called I may not be in great shape, but
when I'm dominated I'm in better shape.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]
You have the odds to push with 77. A lot times you are called and ahead against AK or something. AT is likely to be a 3-1 or 703 dog if dominated, whereas 77 is a 4-1 dog. Pushing UTG with 8xBB and 77 is OK, so this is also OK. It kind of depends if youu want to gamble. You remember the times when it doesn't work. As I siad, I probably would fold 77 too here, because this is a situation where I am not looking to gamble.

[Lloyd]

I don't think his bet was pointless at all. I think it was actually fairly clever, although his subsequent insta-call might lead me to believe that the cleverness was unintended.

The bet was an amount that could be read as either a big hand or a weak hand. It also was enough that if I chose to play back it would be for all my chips. So for a small investment, he found out whether or not I was willing to play for my stack. It's a great sized bet IF you intend to fold to a push.