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  #11  
Old 11-19-2005, 11:30 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Live hand, big pot

[ QUOTE ]
in my opinion, you played this hand awesome

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Pre-flop is read-based and you seemed to be pushing a good edge there.

Flop raise is good as your hand is still vulnerable, you'd like As and stuff to fold, you might sometimes fold out a medium [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], you have value against hands like AQ, QQ, JJ with [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]s in them, and so forth.

And I have often expounded the virtues of raising the turn for a free showdown and this is certainly a good candidate...
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  #12  
Old 11-20-2005, 06:30 AM
DeathDonkey DeathDonkey is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Live hand, big pot

I'm glad you said this McGahee. A very well respected mid/high poster told me afterwards that I missed a river bet.

-DeathDonkey
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  #13  
Old 11-20-2005, 10:56 AM
gaming_mouse gaming_mouse is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Live hand, big pot

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad you said this McGahee. A very well respected mid/high poster told me afterwards that I missed a river bet.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

What range was that poster giving MP? I agree that a turn raise is inconsistent with a river check, but I think the t/r is wrong to begin with. You're behind more than 50% here.
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  #14  
Old 11-20-2005, 12:07 PM
McGahee McGahee is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Live hand, big pot

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad you said this McGahee. A very well respected mid/high poster told me afterwards that I missed a river bet.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

What range was that poster giving MP? I agree that a turn raise is inconsistent with a river check, but I think the t/r is wrong to begin with. You're behind more than 50% here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree - it sounds like MP just played black queens poorly, but without knowing that I don't think I'd raise the turn.
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  #15  
Old 11-20-2005, 01:12 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Live hand, big pot

[ QUOTE ]
I understand wanting to charge SB for his flush draw - but still - you should not be raising the turn if you don't think you have MP beat >50% of the time, right? If you do think you have him beat more often than not, then the river's an easy bet, right? I don't really understand the free showdown play here unless you're pretty sure MP also has a flush draw and I don't see why you'd think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion this is misguided.

We raise the turn as a way to get to showdown and as the last two bet's we're probably going to put in this pot.

Our raise is not inconsistent with a river check because our turn raise is:

1. Primarily a way to get to showdown.

2. Aimed at generating value against hands that will put in money on the turn but not the river, such as big [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]s.

3. Has tactical value in pressuring SB (if he has an A, a medium spade, a pair with outs to beat us, etc.) that a river bet doesn't.

4. Has the possibility of getting the turn bettor to fold a better hand, but if he calls the turn he's much more likely also to call the river if he has a hand we're beating so that factor decreases in value.

I'm really surprised at this line of reasoning. Raising can be done for some many other reasons that immediate equity edges. I think it is fine to argue that our hero does in fact have a 55% edge here and hence should bet the river, but claiming that a river bet is a natural logical consequence of a turn raise is quite misguided in my opinion.
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  #16  
Old 11-20-2005, 01:27 PM
McGahee McGahee is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Live hand, big pot

What better hand are we getting MP to fold by raising the turn? I can't think of any.
I don't think pushing out SB saves us the pot when the river is a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] either, unless you think MP is giving this much action with red KJ?
I am well aware of the virtues of the 'free showdown play' and I am not questioning its general use. I just don't think this is the best spot for it. Both opponents have to have a flush draw for it to make sense, no?
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  #17  
Old 11-20-2005, 01:39 PM
WillMagic WillMagic is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Live hand, big pot

[ QUOTE ]

I am well aware of the virtues of the 'free showdown play' and I am not questioning its general use. I just don't think this is the best spot for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? "I just don't think" on it's own is a pretty empty argument.

Will
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  #18  
Old 11-20-2005, 04:46 PM
DeathDonkey DeathDonkey is offline
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[ QUOTE ]
You're behind more than 50% here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't agree with this part I guess. I had a good read on the guy, he was pissed off at me, he had been overplaying all night, and his angry turn call suggests to me that he finally realized he was getting charged for playing poorly and he needed help on the river. I hope this isn't a "you had to be there" thing because I make similar plays online alot against aggro guys in big pots - because you are ahead more than you think and its worth it to try and charge the draws the max and rarely push out a better hand.

So MP had AQ with the ace of spades and the bad SB had red KJ (a better hand than I expected from him). When a good mid/high poster says I missed a bet on the end, and then the SB turns up red KJ which he certainly would have called with - its impossible for me to argue that my check was correct in this hand. One thing I notice from playing / observing bigger games is that the really good players make thin (correct) value bets and I think I screwed up by not doing so here.

Thanks for the comments from everyone,
DeathDonkey
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  #19  
Old 11-20-2005, 05:03 PM
lerxst337 lerxst337 is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Live hand, big pot

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pretty sure you're folding to a 3bet

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny, as I raised the turn I was thinking to myself "I have no idea what to do if I am 3 bet here". But I think I probably would have folded.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding this play, but the goal of your raise is to charge the draws maximum while hopefully showing down a marginal hand while investing the same number of bets if you had call/call. The ONLY reason why you would call the pro's 3-bet is read dependant, and that he is PURE tilty, right?
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  #20  
Old 11-20-2005, 05:21 PM
DeathDonkey DeathDonkey is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Live hand, big pot

Yes, you have it just right.

-DeathDonkey
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