2 RIVER CHECKRAISES.

[flawless_victory]

full ring internet.

i open redAA EMP. a straightforward reg in the party 100 threebets 2 seats later.
this is the guy who the EP raiser in the ugly AQs hand... he is a fairly tight raiser... if he had a good but not great hand and wanted to see a flop, hed just call. reraise means a solid hand. i cap and we take the flop HU.

flop: Kx9d7x
bet, he calls.

turn: 3d
bet, he raises w/out hesitation, i call.

river: 2x
chekc, he pauses about 5 second and bets, i raise intending to (cry)call a threebet.


i open KJo in CO, LAGish BN threebets, blinds fold and i cap it.

flop: K22r
bet, he pauses a while then raise, i call.

turn: 9
check, bet, i call

river: 9
i checkraise intending to (cry)call a threebet.

[CardSharpCook]

so... 3 combos of KK, 6 combos of AK. You can't fold to a 3bet, and we'll say he can't fold AK to a raise. The 3 times he has KK you lose 2 more BBs than you would be just calling, so you lose 6BBs. The 6 times he has AK, you make 1 extra BB winning 6BBs. So, it is EV neutral. I don't like variance for the sake of variance, so I just call.

Does he have any other hand besides AK/KK/AA which calls a chk/rz? Remember, 99 is out there too... Actually I think the existance of 99 makes this a check/call. Does he call with JJ/QQ/AQ to a river check/rz? Does he even bet these hands here?

whatever, check/call.

Hand 2: KJo... cap it up??? I don't think so... However the way the hand played, I gotta get a checkraise in on the turn or river. However, can we really depend on him to bet a non-K that loses to you on the river? His flop action doesn't say AK to me. KQ is always possible. QQ/JJ/TT? I see him checking behind a lot of 2nd best hands. I get the check/raise in on the turn. I just don't know what you're expecting him to call on the river with. This is a hand where I wish I had AK instead of KJ so I could have HIM calling with KQ/KJ.

flawless,

hand 1: do you think there's any chance he gets away from a king if you 3 bet the turn? actually since his three-betting standards dictate the only king he would have here is AK, i would say no. that being said, i would go ahead and 3 bet the turn because you get the same value and you charge more if he is getting frisky with a turned nut flush draw.

only downside is if he was employing a free showdown play w/ QQ-TT and will immediately fold to a 3-bet. i still would three-bet this though.

hand 2:

i like this more, because if you give more action earlier you give him the opportunity to get away from a worse hand and punish you with a better one. i think this cr has value b/c i see him paying off w/ a bunch of hands, and even the hands he may have that you're behind will have a hard time 3-betting you.

[stigmata]

OK I'll have a stab at this even though I'm probably wrong

1) From the desribed player, lets assume he can only have KK/AK here (sounds like he would coldcall 99, and AA isn't that likely). Therefore there are 3 ways he can have a hand that beats you, and 6 ways he can have a hand that you beat. This means the EV of re-raising and calling a 3-bet is effectively neutral (2/3 * 1 == 1/3 * 2).

If your going to re-raise him at some point, I prefer the turn. This removes the possibility of him checking down the river. Also, if we can fold to a further raise this would be the place to do it. Obviously you can't fold (because of the river crying call). Therefore, with both re-raise/call being effectively EV neural, I prefer the lower variance path of just calling. Perhaps donk-betting a scare river (which didn't come) to stop a free showdown.

2) Wouldn't he take a free showdown with an underpair? What are you beating? KT?

[bobdibble]

Looking at hand 1 in isolation, I would just call.

However, is there value in making a high variance but EV neutral play in this hand in order to get cheaper showdowns in the future?

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: KJo... cap it up??? I don't think so...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I like the preflop cap. Button is laggish, we quite possible have the best hand, and that one extra small bet lets us retain momentum and makes winning if we both whiff much easier. Our hand no longer looks like a mediocre steal holding, it looks strong.

Given that, and that villian still bet both big bet streets, I'm not sure I like a c/r at any time post flop.

lf

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: KJo... cap it up??? I don't think so...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I like the preflop cap. Button is laggish, we quite possible have the best hand, and that one extra small bet lets us retain momentum and makes winning if we both whiff much easier. Our hand no longer looks like a mediocre steal holding, it looks strong.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with this. i have been experimenting lately with widening my capping range when my late position open raise is three-bet by an aggressive player, and it definitely seems helpful.

a) if you both whiff, it's easier for you to win.

b) people seem less likely to play back at you w/ air after you've capped.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]

so... 3 combos of KK, 6 combos of AK. You can't fold to a 3bet, and we'll say he can't fold AK to a raise. The 3 times he has KK you lose 2 more BBs than you would be just calling, so you lose 6BBs. The 6 times he has AK, you make 1 extra BB winning 6BBs. So, it is EV neutral. I don't like variance for the sake of variance, so I just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can discount KK a lot. This is the level in which people finally realise it's best to raise the flop not turn with KK.

Hand 2, i lead the turn, a lot depends on 'laggish' though.

[Paluka]

I thnk 3 betting the turn and betting the river is just better in hand 1. When he checks behind you on the river it is awful. I think this happens more often than him folding to your 3 bet. Also, if he picked up a flush draw on the turn you make him pay for it.

[flawless_victory]

note that he most certainly did not pick up a flush draw as i have the Ad.

i didnt really want to mention this because i thought it might make the hand less intersting to discuss, but i called the turn and checked the river in hand 1. intending to call down.
on the river, i just thought my hand was too too strong on this board, so i decided i needed to put in one raise.
i didnt plan this one out, it was an impulsive checkraise.

most of the time i just threebet turn here.

BTW/ if the river goes checkcheck then this guy has less than a K which means he will be folding to a turn threebet.