A problem with some religous views Part 2.

[chezlaw]

In this post I am going to assume the argument in A problem with some religous views is correct. I'd appreciate it if, for the purposes of trying to keep the thread coherent, that if you disagree with this argument then you respond to the original post.

Original claim
'consider the statement: "we are all guilty of sins, those who believe can get redemption and those who don't believe have no chance of redemption and will be punished"

If my moral sense tells me that a god who enforces this view is morally repugnant then at least one of the following is true:

I am being deceived by my moral feelings
god isn't good
that religous view is mistaken'



I'm now going to make two small steps. I had planned to just claim these were obvious but after being put through the wringer in the previous thread I shall make no such assumption.

Firstly:

The truth of the argument is independent of the statement. By that I mean any statement that caused me the moral repugnation would have done. So I can generalise the claim to.

Claim 1
'If my moral sense tells me that god as described by some religon is morally repugnant then at least one of the following is true:

I am being deceived by my moral feelings
god isn't good
that religous view is mistaken'


Secondly:

Any rational person, who considers the matter must believe logically sound arguments. so

claim 2
'Any rational person whose moral sense tells them that god as described by some religon is morally repugnant must believe that at least one of the following is true:

they are being deceived by their moral feelings
god isn't good
that religous view is mistaken

although they may not know which of the three to believe'


Do you all agree with claims 1. and 2. (some hope [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

If not why not?


chez

[DougShrapnel]

Yes you are correct. Lets say becuase I know of you, and you are human, and humans can make mistakes. That your are in error.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
although they may not know which ones to believe'

[/ QUOTE ]

I would change the words “which ones” to “which of the 3” it is a bit less confusing. At first I thought you might have meant which other religion to believe - but that was my error on first read.

But, so far I don’t see any flaw - other than the verbage itself (could be worded better, not saying I could, but when you are done, I’ll help out if needed) but not your question.

I’ll be interested to see if I missed any flaws so far.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
although they may not know which ones to believe'

[/ QUOTE ]

I would change the words “which ones” to “which of the 3” it is a bit less confusing. At first I thought you might have meant which other religion to believe - but that was my error on first read.

But, so far I don’t see any flaw - other than the verbage itself (could be worded better, not saying I could, but when you are done, I’ll help out if needed) but not your question.

I’ll be interested to see if I missed any flaws so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

but that's what is says [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

All help with clarity is greatly appreciated.

chez

[RJT]

You had me going there - I thought it might have been a miracle -lol -quick editing.

I will help, have a few things to get done first.

[RJT]

Quick question - you are using the words “moral sense” and moral feelings” synonymously correct?

I am trying to edit for you and want to use the same words throughout - makes it simpler.

Or is that your point - that your feelings are getting in the way for your sense?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question - you are using the words “moral sense” and moral feelings” synonymously correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct, no clever distinction just inconsistent.


chez

[DougShrapnel]

It is possible that something regarding the moral correctness of the religous view is hidden. Where if you knew what God knows you would no longer feel repugnant. This alows for your moral sense to be intact, god to be good, and the religous view to be correct.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes you are correct. Lets say becuase I know of you, and you are human, and humans can make mistakes. That your are in error.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your opinion that the claims are correct. As for the rest, I'm not quite sure what you're point is although I agree that I make errors - that's one of the reasons I find these discussions useful.

chez

[ QUOTE ]
It is possible that something regarding the moral correctness of the religous view is hidden. Where if you knew what God knows you would no longer feel repugnant. This alows for your moral sense to be intact, god to be good, and the religous view to be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur. And given that you are not being deceived by your feelings, but instead you are correctly reacting to your feelings which just happen to be based on incomplete information, then any conclusion based on your premise is going to be shaky.