laying down KK?

[swarm]

KK has become a major problem for me lately, maybe I'm not playing it correctly, should you treat it more like QQ?

In party poker 30 and 50's i've been getting killed on this hand especially in mid-levels where pushing isn't automatic...

I usually raise to a substantial amount, should you always fold to a large re-raise? Seems like I've been running into AA and am did in the water or AK or AQ which people will call an all in with and they spike their A.

Accidentally signed up for a steps and didn't realize it until I won the first level. I end up in level 5 only to have my KK run into AA and my miraclous run to stop...

[Laughingboy]

KK is favored to beat any hand except AA. The truth is, if you push with KK, you'd love to be called by just about any hand except AA. This includes AK and AQ. I've had runs where it seemed like I "always" got busted with KK. Heck, I had a run where I lost with AA ten times in a row. We all know what it feels like. It doesn't change the fact that in most games, you should rarely lay down KK before the flop. (If a scary flop comes, that's another matter).

In a super tight game, where if three people each raise in succession you're "sure" one has AA, an expert might consider laying KK down. I'm sure there are also cases where it's a good idea based on tourney strategy considerations. Otherwise, play those kings. The cards will even out in the end.

[MrMon]

Personally, I've come to hate KK early in SnGs, or as I refer to them, Ace Magnets.

With KK, you want action because it's such a good hand, so you don't bet it too big, as winning just the blinds is worthless. But if you don't bet big, every shmoe with Ace-Rag calls. And boy do those Aces hit. In 760 tourneys, I have KK in the first two rounds only winning 57% of the time. Heck, in the first round it's actually negative BB/hand.

I know mathematically it is a good hand. But I just hate it. Maybe I should just play it all-in...

[Laughingboy]

The question is do you keep playing them in those situations? If you're at an "any ace will do" table, you've got to throw KK away if there's an ace on the flop and you get any kind of action. THAT'S the time to fold 'em. Otherwise you're just throwing money away. Too many people play KK too long with an ace showing. Play it strong PF, but be ready to toss it if the board is bad.

[Michael C.]

I like what Dan Harrington said about KK. He wrote that sometimes he can sense AA from a re-raise, but he's just not good enough to really know, so he calls. And that no one else is good enough either.

[sofere]

I have no problems laying down KK early in tourneys if an Ace hits. But I have a real tough time laying it down later in tourneys, especially from EP when opening on after the flop.

Example: 4-5 handed...I'm about even with BB or Button with 10-12xBB. I dealt KK when UTG. I raise 3xbb, called by BB or button. Ace-rag-rag flops. I'm first to act after the flop or BB checks...I'm pot committed with any meaningful bet and I'm not good enough to fold KK here, so I push, and I invariably get called by made pair of aces.

If I check, I'm gonna get bet into and will prolly have to fold. I just don't know what else to do but give them my chips.

[FishBurger]

If you're having a lot of trouble with Kings before the flop, I would just push them before the flop. You'll always get called by aces, but you may also get called by AQ, AK, queens, or sometimes any pocket pair.

I think especially on the bubble you might as well push kings because AQ and AK will almost always call and you'll be a big favorite.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Example: 4-5 handed...I'm about even with BB or Button with 10-12xBB. I dealt KK when UTG. I raise 3xbb, called by BB or button. Ace-rag-rag flops. I'm first to act after the flop or BB checks...I'm pot committed with any meaningful bet and I'm not good enough to fold KK here, so I push, and I invariably get called by made pair of aces.

If I check, I'm gonna get bet into and will prolly have to fold. I just don't know what else to do but give them my chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not pot committed with any meaningful bet. If you bet 6 of your 8 BB and are raised for the last two, guess what? You don't have the odds to call and therefore aren't pot committed. Saying that you are is a shortcut for 'well, I don't know what to do so I'll just save myself the decision and push'.

FWIW, if the button's PF numbers are solid I'll frequently just check to him (weak tight, but hey, I'm not perfect either, and many of these guys won't bet without an ace); otherwise, I'll bet a standard amount and then fold to a raise anyway. Shortstacked is better than nothing.