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Old 12-03-2005, 06:24 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Would You Play On This Table?

So I just got done running my mouth in these forums and logged on to stars. I play both plo and nl on the 1K/2K tables and checked out the plo first. I see 2 2K tables and one with a healthy 1500 pot average. Then I see 4 players from amsterdam on it. 1 is a very good player, 1 is a tricky somewhat lag, and the other 2 are total donks. I've played with all of them before and don't mind playing with any of them. But 4 players from 1 city on a 9 handed table is too much for me. Even though it is just as likely that these 4 are regulars in the games there like Rolf and happen to be playing online when a local game doesn't go, this still is too much for me to trust.

Ray Zee made a comment a few years back about the danger of collusion in online games where you have more hidden cards like omaha and triple draw. So even if two or more players weren't making any funny protection bets and raises, the possibility of shared card knowledge could strongly influence calls especially on drawing boards.

Now out of fairness, I should mention that I frequently play with a lot of english players and it is not uncommon to have 2 from London and a couple from elsewhere. But I have never seen anything funny from them and in fact they relish playing big pots headsup with each other. But regarding one of those Dutch players, I have NEVER seen that person play without at least one other Dutch player on the table.

There are bounds to my trust in the fairness of online games and this type of situation exceeds them. So since the party plo games suck right now I'll just go play no limit which is fine since that is 65% of what I play anyway.

Rolf if you read this, I would be interested in your comments. Again I have never seen any of these Dutch players do anything funny together in hand like I have those of a certain other nationality (think bear-skin hats and onion domes), but I still don't like such situations. Maybe however you know who all of them are in the B&M world though and don't think there is a problem. Again, I would be interested in your thoughts.
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Old 12-03-2005, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Would You Play On This Table?

I would just sit at another table unless you cant find one near as juicy. I mean, why would you ever want to take a chance if you feel something is fishy?

Not to mention if you play in this game, you wont feel as confident, and that could lead to less than premium results.
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Old 12-03-2005, 06:33 PM
beset7 beset7 is offline
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Default Re: Would You Play On This Table?

I've noticed this same phenomenon a number of times,(double average pot size, half the table from amsterdam). I've datamined these games, gone over hands, discussed them with people and I've never seen anything that looked like outright collusion to me.

Though depending on the screen names there are a few live ones who I'd be more then happy to play with. Even if I suspected the game was dirty. Especially if I had some sense of which players were working together. Maybe that's stupid but that's the truth.

It's a little annoying when they chat in dutch the whole time but online translators are more then enough to get the drift of the conversation.

Or, if your name is TheRempel, you can start typing "my [censored] is swollen and infected" in dutch over and over again.
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Old 12-03-2005, 06:56 PM
dibbs dibbs is offline
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Default Re: Would You Play On This Table?

there were some recent posts about how a group of players from the 75 O8 were bragging about how they shared hole cards and were killing that game.

Now I know theres a huge congestion of players from that area so it doesnt prove anything, but personally I wouldnt feel so great about it. Thing is I think the softer collusion is harder for sites to monitor, so Id have a funny feeling about it.

Interested in hearing what people far more knowledgeable than myself have to say however.
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Old 12-03-2005, 08:24 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Would You Play On This Table?

Well beset, like I said too, I have never seen anything in a certain hand. But shared card knowledge could allow a couple players to know when you or they might be drawing better or thinner on a draw, or that a 3rd player is unlikely to have the hand represented on the river thus allowing one of them to make a "miraculous" call.

I've played with colluders in limit games in B&M cardrooms, and they really don't bother me there since there are actually ways to exploit that, and since a good cardroom manager will be willing to have a 3rd player's hand exposed from the muck when he didn't call the last bet in order to prove what is going on. But in big bet games online it's just not worth the risk if there is even a smaller possibility.
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Old 12-03-2005, 09:31 PM
joewatch joewatch is offline
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Default Re: Would You Play On This Table?

The most common sort of collusion that I imagine happens quite frequently is players sitting in the same room playing at the same table online, and players using instant messaging to talk to each other during a hand.
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Old 12-03-2005, 10:21 PM
Big Dave D Big Dave D is offline
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Default Re: Would You Play On This Table?

I'm guessing the Doctor was in the house [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I've played with a lot of the Dutch, and never seen anything untoward either. FWIW, I dont think Rolf plays online, or at least in that game, so I wouldn't think he would know much about it. From my conversations with the Amsterdam crew, the amsterdam game died over a year back. That is why they are now playing online.

Also, I think collusion is much weaker in Omaha. Most collusion involves running someone into the nuts. But this is much less effective in PLO. If you have top set, or a big drawing hand, there isnt much damage that collusion can do to you. OK, the "I know I have the nut flush" coup can happen, but hell, those guys call with lower than the 2nd nut flush anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

And also, I know in the US world geography is not a major topic, but Amsterdam is a major city...over 1 million people. Europe is not one big village y'know [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

dd
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Old 12-03-2005, 11:06 PM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: Would You Play On This Table?

[ QUOTE ]
Or, if your name is TheRempel, you can start typing "my [censored] is swollen and infected" in dutch over and over again.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was!
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  #9  
Old 12-04-2005, 12:18 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Would You Play On This Table?

Hi Dave,

FWIW, I would have made the same comments if 4 of them were from Houston. And I do actually realize the size of amsterdam. Overt collusion does involve either running someone into the nuts like in a situation where you have the nut full and someone has quads but 2 other players passively called your flop or turn bet, duping you into thinking they must each only have a board set (although of course one of them might just be a retard drawing when the board is paired), or when someone makes a protection bet so his bud can ratchet up the action and make you have to play an average draw for your entire stack in order to get you to fold.

But don't underestimate the softer forms where card knowledge is shared in games with more than 2 unseen cards held by each player. Also if two such players either always play the same pot or never do, then that is suspicious as well.

And actually for the brief time I viewed the table, I didn't notice Doc, if you are referring to whom I think you are and not making a sly reference to yourself (that mutha has put some horrendous beats on me, but I like and want the action).
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  #10  
Old 12-04-2005, 05:35 AM
punter11235 punter11235 is offline
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Default Re: Would You Play On This Table?

I am considering playing in that game. Thank you for sharing your doubts. I played only for few hours there and didnt notice anything suspicious so far. I will let you know if I change my mind.
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