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  #61  
Old 12-19-2005, 08:34 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
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Posts: 229
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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An all-powerful god doesn't have to be truthful or shed that blood stuff. That you insist god does have to, is using your religon to confine god.

An all powerfull god can make anything the way he wants just by willing it.

chez

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I am not using my religion to confine God. I am using what God says about himself to "confine" him.

I thought this discussion was about the God revealed in the pages of scripture. Oh, wait. It was.

-Zapp

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No it wasn't. it was was about whether jesus had to die to ....

Clearly if god is omnipotent then he didn't.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. Who then is this Jesus you are referring to? Please point me so some source of who exactly you are talking about.

-Zapp
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  #62  
Old 12-19-2005, 08:37 PM
maurile maurile is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 95
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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does that mean if my son lies he needs to sacrifice his pet goldfish to be forgiven.

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If he doesn't have a goat, I guess his goldfish will have to do.

Seriously, the whole sin-and-redemption thing is messed up in Christianity.

Original sin is a crock because Adam couldn't have sinned when he didn't know the difference between good and evil. Even if he did know the difference, he didn't sin: all he did was disobey God. But disobeying someone isn't ipso facto a sin.

Even if eating the apple was a sin, it was Adam's sin and he is responsible -- not the rest of us. The way moral responsibility works is, people are responsible for their own wrongdoings, not the wrongdoings of others. So the rest of us don't need to be redeemed for Adam's "original" sin.

Even if we are somehow responsible for Adam's sin, we are the ones who must then redeem ourselves. You can't redeem someone else by dying for his sins. The guilty parties must redeem themselves by paying restitution to their victims, promising not to do it again, etc.

And even if we could be redeemed by having Jesus take our punishment, Jesus didn't take our punishment. Our punishment was supposed to be hell, but Jesus ascended into heaven.

So like I said -- it's all messed up.
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  #63  
Old 12-19-2005, 08:38 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London, England
Posts: 58
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An all-powerful god doesn't have to be truthful or shed that blood stuff. That you insist god does have to, is using your religon to confine god.

An all powerfull god can make anything the way he wants just by willing it.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not using my religion to confine God. I am using what God says about himself to "confine" him.

I thought this discussion was about the God revealed in the pages of scripture. Oh, wait. It was.

-Zapp

[/ QUOTE ]
No it wasn't. it was was about whether jesus had to die to ....

Clearly if god is omnipotent then he didn't.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. Who then is this Jesus you are referring to? Please point me so some source of who exactly you are talking about.

-Zapp

[/ QUOTE ]
What's that got to do with the price of a few loaves?

chez
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  #64  
Old 12-19-2005, 08:41 PM
hashi92 hashi92 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 6
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

if god is all powerful
all knowing
all truthfull
shouldnt he have a list like santi clause of whos naughty and nice.
santi clause doesnt ask for blood
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  #65  
Old 12-19-2005, 08:41 PM
BCPVP BCPVP is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Whitewater, WI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
And even if we could be redeemed by having Jesus take our punishment, Jesus didn't take our punishment. Our punishment was supposed to be hell, but Jesus ascended into heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not entirely correct.
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  #66  
Old 12-19-2005, 08:49 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 229
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An all-powerful god doesn't have to be truthful or shed that blood stuff. That you insist god does have to, is using your religon to confine god.

An all powerfull god can make anything the way he wants just by willing it.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not using my religion to confine God. I am using what God says about himself to "confine" him.

I thought this discussion was about the God revealed in the pages of scripture. Oh, wait. It was.

-Zapp

[/ QUOTE ]
No it wasn't. it was was about whether jesus had to die to ....

Clearly if god is omnipotent then he didn't.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. Who then is this Jesus you are referring to? Please point me so some source of who exactly you are talking about.

-Zapp

[/ QUOTE ]
What's that got to do with the price of a few loaves?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

You are smarter than this, chez. I'll play your little game. Ignoring what scripture has to say about God...

All we know about God is that he is all-powerful. Your question then...can God forgive sins apart from the shedding of blood? Sure.

The original question. Why did Jesus have to die?

Who is Jesus? You're talking about the God of the Bible now who has said more about himself than that he is all powerful.

Are we accomplishing anything?

-Zapp
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  #67  
Old 12-19-2005, 08:53 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 229
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
if god is all powerful
all knowing
all truthfull
shouldnt he have a list like santi clause of whos naughty and nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

He does. We are all (except Jesus) on the naughty list.

Rom 3:10 as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
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  #68  
Old 12-19-2005, 08:53 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London, England
Posts: 58
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An all-powerful god doesn't have to be truthful or shed that blood stuff. That you insist god does have to, is using your religon to confine god.

An all powerfull god can make anything the way he wants just by willing it.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not using my religion to confine God. I am using what God says about himself to "confine" him.

I thought this discussion was about the God revealed in the pages of scripture. Oh, wait. It was.

-Zapp

[/ QUOTE ]
No it wasn't. it was was about whether jesus had to die to ....

Clearly if god is omnipotent then he didn't.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. Who then is this Jesus you are referring to? Please point me so some source of who exactly you are talking about.

-Zapp

[/ QUOTE ]
What's that got to do with the price of a few loaves?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

You are smarter than this, chez. I'll play your little game. Ignoring what scripture has to say about God...

All we know about God is that he is all-powerful. Your question then...can God forgive sins apart from the shedding of blood? Sure.

The original question. Why did Jesus have to die?

Who is Jesus? You're talking about the God of the Bible now who has said more about himself than that he is all powerful.

Are we accomplishing anything?

-Zapp

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, we are seeing you say that god couldn't have achived the same outcome without jesus dying. Clearly not true if god is omniopotent.

and you believe it because it says so in the bible. Therefore the bible restricts god's might and you put your faith in the truth of the bible rather than in god omnipotence.

chez
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  #69  
Old 12-19-2005, 09:41 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 229
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, we are seeing you say that god couldn't have achived the same outcome without jesus dying. Clearly not true if god is omniopotent.

and you believe it because it says so in the bible. Therefore the bible restricts god's might and you put your faith in the truth of the bible rather than in god omnipotence.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

My faith is in the God that scripture reveals. God is not a liar. If he says that there is no forgiveness apart from the shedding of blood, it does not therefore follow that he is not omnipotent.

It poses no problem from the "omnipotence" standpoint for God to forgive sins apart from the shedding of blood. It poses a "truth" problem.

You pose a false dichotomy: Either God is omnipotent or he is a liar. This is just silly.
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  #70  
Old 12-19-2005, 09:52 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London, England
Posts: 58
Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, we are seeing you say that god couldn't have achived the same outcome without jesus dying. Clearly not true if god is omniopotent.

and you believe it because it says so in the bible. Therefore the bible restricts god's might and you put your faith in the truth of the bible rather than in god omnipotence.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

My faith is in the God that scripture reveals. God is not a liar. If he says that there is no forgiveness apart from the shedding of blood, it does not therefore follow that he is not omnipotent.

It poses no problem from the "omnipotence" standpoint for God to forgive sins apart from the shedding of blood. It poses a "truth" problem.

You pose a false dichotomy: Either God is omnipotent or he is a liar. This is just silly.

[/ QUOTE ]
No false dichotomy. There's another alternative - god is omnipotent and the bible is wrong. That you believes the bible to be true is up to you but it denies an omnipotent god.

chez
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