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Old 09-13-2005, 03:25 AM
Paul77 Paul77 is offline
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Default A stupid river fold in 3/6

Howdy,

Thought I'd get your thoughts on this play. I'm in a slightly loose hold 'em game at my local B&M, 3/6. Things are up and down, and in the little blind I'm dealt 86 of spades. I limp, and the flop comes Qs 7h 9s. I bet; several players fold, the big blind and button call. The turn brings a blank. I check, big blind and button do the same. The river brings the 4s. I bet, big blind raises, button re-raises. $12 to me, about $45 in the pot, and I dump the hand thinking ace or king high flush. Turns out two pair won this hand.

Calling one raise is a no-brainer. Two raises, with them occuring on the river when the three-flush showed up and not much aggression before this, made me think I was sunk. I tend to think calling was the right move (even though the player next to me said he would have made the lay down too) and I made a bonehead play, but the pot was not massive so maybe that justifies my action a little but not much at small stakes where strange plays abound. Not looking for sympathy here, but just some input - I think I played this one too tight.

Any thoughts?
Paul
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  #2  
Old 09-13-2005, 03:36 AM
Bodhi Bodhi is offline
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Default Re: A stupid river fold in 3/6

That's quite a fold--looser players would just cap it without thinking. Anyway, you have to call here, for your own sanity and because it's +EV. Someone could have decided to slow-play a set, or have an ugly straight, you never can tell in a live game because the hand ranges are so great.

Btw, some people will say check, but betting this turn is a great way to disguise your hand, and it's for value if both of them call.
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Old 09-13-2005, 03:39 AM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: A stupid river fold in 3/6

[ QUOTE ]
That's quite a fold--looser players would just cap it without thinking. Anyway, you have to call here, for your own sanity and because it's +EV. Someone could have decided to slow-play a set, or have an ugly straight, you never can tell in a live game because the hand ranges are so great.

Btw, some people will say check, but betting this turn is a great way to disguise your hand, and it's for value if both of them call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like betting the turn because:

-It disguises your hand.
-You have so many outs that in fact you don't even need to worry much about being raised, particularly if it stays three-handed.
-If you check a bet is very likely to go in anyway and you may be able to take the pot down with a bet.
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  #4  
Old 09-13-2005, 04:37 AM
benwood benwood is offline
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Default Re: A stupid river fold in 3/6

Don't play results. You made a nice laydown but it just didn' work out this time. Keep up the good work.
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  #5  
Old 09-13-2005, 04:42 AM
Bodhi Bodhi is offline
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Default Re: A stupid river fold in 3/6

[ QUOTE ]
Don't play results. You made a nice laydown but it just didn't work out this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing nice about laying down a flush on the river (with no pair on the board, even!). Regardless of the results, this river fold was bad.
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  #6  
Old 09-13-2005, 09:29 AM
Paul77 Paul77 is offline
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Default Re: A stupid river fold in 3/6

Btw, some people will say check, but betting this turn is a great way to disguise your hand, and it's for value if both of them call.

Hmm...Yeah, I'd check because I bet on the flop to buy a free card on the turn, and it worked out [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]). I might bet with a nut flush draw.

It was too tight of me to make the laydown. I do think if the board were paired it might have been more justifiable. I was looking in the Miller book and he comments on his section on the river about illogical play - that point really hit home [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]). The quick bet and re-raise though made me assume I was beat for sure. Thankfully it didn't put me on tilt, except for one loose call with QT offsuit on the button. Had another player I'd been watching made the re-raise, I may have folded, but if it's two new guys I'm up against why on earth I'd fold this is beyond me.

Thanks for the input though - look forward to continuing the discussion,
Paul
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  #7  
Old 09-13-2005, 09:47 AM
sean c sean c is offline
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Default Re: A stupid river fold in 3/6

Paul your betting the flop for value you have a huge equity edge and should get as many bets in on the flop as possible. Also the free card play usually only works when you have position on the field certainly not from the small blind. Checking the turn here pretty much gives your hand away to anyone with half a brain and who knows a turn bet may even win the pot with 9 high (wouldn't that be cool [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]) and getting raised isn't a big deal because of the amount of outs that you have to improve.
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  #8  
Old 09-13-2005, 10:01 AM
rmarotti rmarotti is offline
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Default Re: A stupid river fold in 3/6

Cap.
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  #9  
Old 09-13-2005, 06:49 PM
Paul77 Paul77 is offline
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Default Re: A stupid river fold in 3/6

I like betting the turn because:

-It disguises your hand.
-You have so many outs that in fact you don't even need to worry much about being raised, particularly if it stays three-handed.
-If you check a bet is very likely to go in anyway and you may be able to take the pot down with a bet.

Hmm...I think I'm more apt to check it, but betting is a good move too. Out of curiosity, when the board isn't paired, when in your opinion should you bet the turn for value? Surely in a tight game if you think you can win the pot right there. Perhaps too tight, but I will only consider it when I have a nut flush draw or top pair with a good flush draw; in late position I'll bet on the flop to try to get a free card on the turn. (It ended up working out that way in the hand but being I was in early position as one poster pointed out you don't really bet for a free card there).

Also, a raise wouldn't have capped it - Canterbury Park allows 4 raises.

Thanks for the feedback (look forward to more). I think this was an ugly decision and illustrates why you need to make river calls for even two bets unless you are very very certain you are beat.

-Paul
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  #10  
Old 09-13-2005, 11:07 PM
otis_nixon otis_nixon is offline
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Default Re: A stupid river fold in 3/6

[ QUOTE ]
Don't play results. You made a nice laydown but it just didn' work out this time. Keep up the good work.

[/ QUOTE ]

call that shiit, it's a live 3/6 game, everyone plays so bad, I'd call without question
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