Crappy river card, can I overcall?

[gopnik]

I am not sure I like the river bet. It's a very very bad card and since the pot is so huge you have to call a c/r. I check behind here. And since the pot is so big, I call one more.

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Hmm... he didn't exactly sound happy. I imagine he folded - hence nearly breaking his mouse.

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Bet/fold on the river is one thing when you're OOP...I don't like it, but there are situations where I'll do it. But with position on the field?! Figure it out before you bet, people! If you're going to feel compelled to fold when you get check-raised on the river, then don't bet!

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Are you serious? I'm headed to bed and won't have time to reply to this, but betting at any point on the river does not mean we have to call a raise or check/raise. In contrast to you, I would say that if you feel the need to call a check/raise, don't bet.

The key question: How often are we good if we get check/raised? Results on this particular hand are not important.

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I think that the river provides some good discussion points. At first I was going to leave my decision in question to whether I should bet out or not on the river. I didn't however because I felt that betting there had enough value that it would be +EV in the long run. I was actually more cnecerned with the overcall. According to TOP, you must have a much stronger hand to overcall then to just call. Since I had problems putting UTG on a hand, I was even more bothered by UTG+1's cold call of the river raise. At the time the proper decision was that I was very close to not beating BOTH players 1 in 21 times.

Obivously after then hand, I took several notes.

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IMO this is a pretty thin river value bet, mainly b/c you are getting c/r a lot here: a lot of draw just came in (flush, str8, AK, AJ, not to mention a slowplayed ten.)

I think you have to call a c/r here, the pot is too big and you will win often enough. More importantly, I think at micros it is generally bad practice to fold for one bet in a big pot just because you are overcalling. Most of these guys are donkeys, and there overcall does not mean they have you beat. Think about this, you are value betting hoping they will call a river bet with a hand you beat, so don't you think there is a good chance he is calling here with a hand you beat?

[2+2 wannabe]

you folded the river getting 21.5:1 and Jx UTG+1? yikes....

[ArturiusX]

Its a slim bet here, I think I check.

Since you bet, its an easy fold, despite the pot size. We are good here like never.

[yellowjack]

I haven't read this thread yet but UTG could just be a huge donkey for all we know that enjoys putting in random raises. UTG+1 could easily be calling down with a jack, or a ten, or even a 4.

You're getting 21.5 to 1 here, calling here is necessary since those two above statements could be true.

[bozlax]

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...betting at any point on the river does not mean we have to call a raise or check/raise.

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I agree that the results of this particular hand are not germane. I disagree with the above as a statement of general principle.

In this particular hand, Hero had absolute position. If Hero were first to act and the action went bet, raise, call, then I could see a bet/fold. But, last to act he has to know there's a possibility that the preflop LRR'r will check-raise him, and the middle player that's been calling all the way will call, and if he thinks about this possibility and decides that he'll fold to that action, then why should he bet in the first place?

(Edit: I'd really like to figure out a way to put some numbers to this. Maybe that'll be my thinking-project for this week.)