AA: SSHE pg. 163

Aviston · #1 09-20-2005, 07:32 PM

Interesting hand to say the least.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero ...?

Should I cap this for value here? Or is this much like the KK hand on page 163 of SSHE? By capping, I'll be giving BB a little over 10:1 on his call and UTG 15:1. If, however, I wait until the turn to raise (assuming UTG+2 bets the turn) I would cut down those odds to around 8:1.

On a side note, I'm not even sure my hand is currently best considering I got check-raised by not one but two players on my flop bet. How about that MP1 calling 3 bets cold like it's his job?

TheHip41 · #2 09-20-2005, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting hand to say the least.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero ...?

Should I cap this for value here? Or is this much like the KK hand on page 163 of SSHE? By capping, I'll be giving BB a little over 10:1 on his call and UTG 15:1. If, however, I wait until the turn to raise (assuming UTG+2 bets the turn) I would cut down those odds to around 8:1.

On a side note, I'm not even sure my hand is currently best considering I got check-raised by not one but two players on my flop bet. How about that MP1 calling 3 bets cold like it's his job?

[/ QUOTE ]

I played this same hand today. Had AA, I raise, got 3 bet behind me, I capped.

Flop 952 rainbow, I bet, get raised, some dude c/r both of us, I cap, 3 to the turn

9952 I bet, they call

river

99542

I bet, they call

I 'see' KK and JJ, thanks PA HUD [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I cap and go from there. If you hit any resistance on the turn, it's time to slow down.

Aviston · #3 09-20-2005, 07:40 PM

Well, I posted my hand-being-best-musings as a side note. What I'm really asking here is if it is better to cap this flop for value, or if there is more value in waiting to raise the turn to protect my hand.

TheHip41 · #4 09-20-2005, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I posted my hand-being-best-musings as a side note. What I'm really asking here is if it is better to cap this flop for value, or if there is more value in waiting to raise the turn to protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't protect your hand from much at this point. MP guy cold calling 3 isn't going to fold to a bet and a raise, everyone else is putting money in this pot freely.

I'd cap to try and take control of the hand. If I cap the flop and the turn is a brick, and it's bet and raised to me, I can safely fold then. Also, if a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hits the turn, do you really want to raise at that point?

Aviston · #5 09-20-2005, 07:48 PM

Well, I was more of thinking that if a brick hit then I'd raise the turn. It's not about trying to get players to fold, it's about giving them incorrect odds on their call. By waiting until the turn I can give many draws (including gutshots, etc) incorrect odds. Their mistakes are +EV for me.

TheHip41 · #6 09-20-2005, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I was more of thinking that if a brick hit then I'd raise the turn. It's not about trying to get players to fold, it's about giving them incorrect odds on their call. By waiting until the turn I can give many draws (including gutshots, etc) incorrect odds. Their mistakes are +EV for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think even this will happen. When you call 2 more, and the BB calls 2 more, this is a 32SB pot.

16BB to the turn. Say it goes bet, you raise,

Now there's 19BB, ppl have to call 2BB. 9.5-1

I just don't think you can protect this hand anymore, it's all about value.

winky51 · #7 09-21-2005, 09:41 AM

What he says. That seems the correct play. CAP the flop, bet the turn, of you get raised there then consider your options. KK aint laying down and I am pretty sure one of them has that. The only other hand that 3 better on the flop might have is a set.

crunchy1 · #8 09-21-2005, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Should I cap this for value here? Or is this much like the KK hand on page 163 of SSHE? By capping, I'll be giving BB a little over 10:1 on his call and UTG 15:1. If, however, I wait until the turn to raise (assuming UTG+2 bets the turn) I would cut down those odds to around 8:1.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a 6-player pot at 2/4 I would spend more time trying to get the most value from my hand vs. worrying about trying to protect it. You also need to pay attention to the action and be aware of when to release you hand (when top-pair isn't good anymore).

House-Lion · #9 09-21-2005, 10:36 AM

doesn't anyone comment a possible flush-draw here that very well could be a raiser or a fl-dr with a pair or some other random holding where that player think this is worth a raise?

what happend on turn?

I like the idea of getting the possibility to raise on turn again because you sometimes will fold out someone with a pair drawing to 2 pair or that 2 out-chaser.

Derek in NYC · #10 09-21-2005, 11:05 AM

I would cap it here, but only partially "for value" since there's a reasonable chance you're crushed at this point. (The other possibility is that somebody is jamming the nut flush draw, or draw and a pair, in this multiway pot).

One of the main reasons I want to cap here is to make 4th street easier to play. If a guy was going nuts on the flop with a draw, he will be less likely to raise into my cap with the same draw on 4th street.

So, if I cap the flop (and thus signal overpair), but on a non-heart 4th street UTG bets out into my flop cap and UTG+1 still raises, I can safely fold. If it is checked to me, I bet for value (although a checkraise is problematic).

If a heart falls, the hand is harder to play, and I'd be inclined to fold against two bets cold, since I dont have any redraws. OTOH, if a heart falls that doesnt pair the board, there's a pretty good chance it won't be raised, even by somebody holding a set