Calling down a maniac with a weak hand

FreakDaddy · #1 10-14-2005, 10:41 PM

Villian is 85/24/5. He basically just bets full pot size every hand and every street so he could have any two. My quick math said there was a decent chance I was ahead here. When I decided to call the turn I told myself he's setting me all-in and will I call. River card is not pretty. The raise is situational as I thought I'd get it HU's versus villian, but the raise needed to be a bit more(unfortunetly it's pot limit though). Anyone else make this call?

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($24.75)
MP1 ($4.15)
MP2 ($32.70)
Hero ($23.65)
Button ($19.74)
SB ($86.25)
BB ($9.10)
UTG ($48.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: ($3.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $2, BB folds, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($7.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $6.9, Hero calls $6.90.

River: ($21.05) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $20, Hero calls $13.75 (All-In).

Final Pot: $54.80

Simplistic · #2 10-14-2005, 11:07 PM

raise flop, pot turn, half pot river.

i suspect he folds by the turn.

FreakDaddy · #3 10-14-2005, 11:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raise flop, pot turn, half pot river.

i suspect he folds by the turn.

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why? Please explain. If I have the ebst hand don't I want him to keep betting? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

afreeman · #4 10-14-2005, 11:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why? Please explain. If I have the ebst hand don't I want him to keep betting? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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You have a best hand that is vulnerable (though that flop isn't too bad). Hammering him on the flop would have prevented him from drawing that other ten that he needed to make his set.

I'm guessing that is what you got beat with, right?

FreakDaddy · #5 10-14-2005, 11:38 PM

You could argue to raise the turn (but you'd essentially be pushing and getting the same results as calling), but raising the flop is a mistake. Perhaps others can explain, because I'm cooking dinner right now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Think about a couple things though. 1) We know he does this when he gets involved in a hand every time.
2) I raised pre-flop, why is he betting into the preflop raiser with an A on board?

Simplistic · #6 10-14-2005, 11:41 PM

you need to take control of the hand rather than letting him bet into you without you knowing where you are. I have this problem against lags as I tend to try and get them to induce bluffs, however when I have a marginal hand and do this I tend to let them catch up and I still have no idea where I am. take control.

FreakDaddy · #7 10-14-2005, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you need to take control of the hand rather than letting him bet into you without you knowing where you are. I have this problem against lags as I tend to try and get them to induce bluffs, however when I have a marginal hand and do this I tend to let them catch up and I still have no idea where I am. take control.

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Yeah I used to think that too. Yet this situation doesn't warrent that.

afreeman · #8 10-15-2005, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You could argue to raise the turn (but you'd essentially be pushing and getting the same results as calling), but raising the flop is a mistake. Perhaps others can explain, because I'm cooking dinner right now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be good, because I obviously missed it.

I guess the argument is that if villain is playing (and raising) any two cards, then his most likely random holding at the end of the hand will be either high card or a pair. Since you have highest pair, you're the overwhelming favorite and want to milk him for as much as possible.

However, even the most brain-dead maniac won't continue to fire unless he catches something. In that case, you're no longer facing any two random cards and thus no longer an overwhelming favorite--you're a small favorite.

[ QUOTE ]
Think about a couple things though. 1) We know he does this when he gets involved in a hand every time.
2) I raised pre-flop, why is he betting into the preflop raiser with an A on board?

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1) So his bet is meaningless from an information-gathering standpoint. We know he has 2 cards.

2) Because he's a maniac and that is what maniacs do. It could suggest that he has an ace, or it could suggest a weaker pair (probably the most likely scenario), or it could suggest nothing.

More generally, I guess my philosophy with maniacs is to not try and get too fancy. I might loosen up a bit if I can isolate, but mostly I just play good hands aggressively and let things fall where they may. Perhaps thats a leak, or yet another weak-tight monkey that I need to kill.

Its probably +EV to press these little edges here and there, but what happens when a scare card comes on the river and he goes all-in? Is that a place where you really want to be pressing your minor edge?

FreakDaddy · #9 10-15-2005, 12:07 AM

Hero has Ac 9c (two pair, aces and tens).
SB has Ks Qc (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $48.55. SB wins $6.25.

Part of the reason I called is because there was a small possibility of a split pot here as well and I'm getting over 2:1 on my call. There are many times to 'take charge' of a hand, but if you have a known villian that will bet and bluff off his stack, it's sometimes better to take this all the way down. Yes, there are times when villian will improve, but there are also times you will as well.

afreeman · #10 10-15-2005, 12:13 AM

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if you have a known villian that will bet and bluff off his stack, it's sometimes better to take this all the way down.

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Thats a nice example of the importance of good reads. I would have taken the small pot on the flop.