150/300 bellagio hand

[bicyclekick]

I wouldn't call the UTG player solid. He's the type that will check/fold most flops and if not the flop, the turn and if he puts any preasure on you he's got you beat. I'll 3 bet him all day with lots of holdings.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am going to go against the grain and say checkraise the turn.

Going along with the DERB style of play, in this game you need to get people to fear you, and you need them to not be calling your bets with nothing or betting vs you with nothing (and instead simply folding to you because they fear you), and checkraising him on this turn will help towards doing just that. On this board texture (coupled with the PF action) I really don't see him holding that many hands that will three bet you, so even if you're behind it's only costing you one more BB than check calling the turn and river, and if he folds to the turn checkraise this will go miles towards helping you learn that you can steal future pots off this guy -- pots that will be immensely more valuable than the .75BB-.8BB it costs you when you're behind on the turn and do checkraise.

Plus he will maybe even call you down with a worse hand simply out of curiosity (and knowing you're an online player and as such we have a rep for bluffing/spewing too much). Plus he might be winning and you river him anyway and it might momentarily tilt him.

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Also, say you c/r him on the turn and he calls you down and now you show this hand. Regardless of whether you won the pot or not, now automatically he is going to fear your turn checks more and check behind more often (AND not make it past the flop without a piece of the board as often), so, you can assume for the next hour in future spots if he does bet the turn, you can fold more often if say you had JJ instead of Ah8h, while all the while, lets say 30 minutes later you flop a set OOP vs him and he calls you on the flop, now you can c/r him AGAIN on the turn if the turn puts a flush/straight redraw out there and he's more likely to 3bet you with TPGK because he saw you c/r weak before when you picked up a redraw (and we know it's more likely he's going to bet the turn if we check because we have pacified him into calling/betting when he has it thanks to the A8 turn c/r that he saw), so now you get yourself excessive action with your monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gold.

[Paluka]

Because our opponent is a NL/PLO pro, he can have a wide range here. 55,44,33,22 are just as likely as AQ. He could even have AA. We certainly have to see the showdown, but the best way to get there is pretty complex.
I don't think checkraising this sort of player because we think he will fear us down the line works really well against this type of opponent. It would work much better against the ABC guy. Also, we are in a live game where we may never play with this guy again. He might leave in 5 minutes. Not every decision needs to be a metagame one.

[SA125]

Right. TY.

[4thstreetpete]

BK I do like your play here. Anyone who says fold to one more bet on river doesn't know what he's talking about. 6 handed high stakes, this is going to a showdown.
I would occasionally checkraise the turn here when a second heart lands if for nothing else to send a clear message that you can't be pushed over. Even if he does call you have many clear outs.

[andyfox]

When I first read BK's post, I agreed with his play. Check-raisng the turn when a second heart hits is old news.

But reading your post, I realize I myself am starting to play too conservatively on the turn. Thinking about the guys I play too conservatively against, they're exactly the guys against whom I fear their turn checks for the reasons you elucidate. I need to up my fear quotient.

Thanks for two insightful posts.

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am going to go against the grain and say checkraise the turn.

Going along with the DERB style of play, in this game you need to get people to fear you, and you need them to not be calling your bets with nothing or betting vs you with nothing (and instead simply folding to you because they fear you), and checkraising him on this turn will help towards doing just that. On this board texture (coupled with the PF action) I really don't see him holding that many hands that will three bet you, so even if you're behind it's only costing you one more BB than check calling the turn and river, and if he folds to the turn checkraise this will go miles towards helping you learn that you can steal future pots off this guy -- pots that will be immensely more valuable than the .75BB-.8BB it costs you when you're behind on the turn and do checkraise.

Plus he will maybe even call you down with a worse hand simply out of curiosity (and knowing you're an online player and as such we have a rep for bluffing/spewing too much). Plus he might be winning and you river him anyway and it might momentarily tilt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, say you c/r him on the turn and he calls you down and now you show this hand. Regardless of whether you won the pot or not, now automatically he is going to fear your turn checks more and check behind more often (AND not make it past the flop without a piece of the board as often), so, you can assume for the next hour in future spots if he does bet the turn, you can fold more often if say you had JJ instead of Ah8h, while all the while, lets say 30 minutes later you flop a set OOP vs him and he calls you on the flop, now you can c/r him AGAIN on the turn if the turn puts a flush/straight redraw out there and he's more likely to 3bet you with TPGK because he saw you c/r weak before when you picked up a redraw (and we know it's more likely he's going to bet the turn if we check because we have pacified him into calling/betting when he has it thanks to the A8 turn c/r that he saw), so now you get yourself excessive action with your monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

very nice

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to go against the grain and say checkraise the turn.

Going along with the DERB style of play, in this game you need to get people to fear you, and you need them to not be calling your bets with nothing or betting vs you with nothing (and instead simply folding to you because they fear you), and checkraising him on this turn will help towards doing just that. On this board texture (coupled with the PF action) I really don't see him holding that many hands that will three bet you, so even if you're behind it's only costing you one more BB than check calling the turn and river, and if he folds to the turn checkraise this will go miles towards helping you learn that you can steal future pots off this guy -- pots that will be immensely more valuable than the .75BB-.8BB it costs you when you're behind on the turn and do checkraise.

Plus he will maybe even call you down with a worse hand simply out of curiosity (and knowing you're an online player and as such we have a rep for bluffing/spewing too much). Plus he might be winning and you river him anyway and it might momentarily tilt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

When i began to read this, i thought to myself, "that can't be right." When i finished reading it, i though "holy [censored] he is right". Nice post schneider.

[peachy]

im either betting that turn or check raising it...

[bicyclekick]

He said king-high, I sat there, unresponsive. He said king-high again and I did the "roll it over" motion and he disgustingly turned over King ten of hearts, I showed my hand and took the pot.

He was pissed and I got scolded pretty bad by a local who said around here when a guy says "i missed" or "king-high" you're supposed to just show your hand and drag the pot and it's very rude to do what I did.

I agree it's a little bit rude perhaps, but if he wants to see my hand it's only fair if he shows his. I don't mind him not showing, he can muck. I'll take the pot and muck my cards too.

With really bad players I'm a lot less abrasive...I don't want to make them feel dumb/bad and leave the game, but with another good player...I think making him show is hand is hands down the best/right play.

This is not the first time this has came up by far...and I'm curious how people like Tommy Angelo handle situations like this.