General question: AK in the BB vs a lot of limpers?

FourKing Hell · #1 01-26-2005, 06:29 PM

The other day I had AK and it was five or six limpers to me in the BB. I didn't want to check of course, but also didn't really like the idea of 3 or so callers, so I decided to make it an even $100, making a $30 overbet. Much like I expected, they all folded (I dont play LAG or have that image).

But what if someone calls? Do I assume I'm second-best on the flop unless an ace or king comes? If I do hit, I probably won't be paid off, and if I do get it all in I'm most likely beat.
If I do the same with big pairs, people can't call and bluff when I miss, which makes this even more of a 'win it or be forced to check it down' situation. Is this bad?

What comes to mind is a hand in Ciaffone's book. He advocates to make an overbet in that spot with AJ, to most probably steal the pot right away, and do the same with AA, to balance your game. However, AK seems to 'in the middle' for that - neither a borderline good-ish hand not a monster. I think it's a waste to play it as either one of those.

What's your plan?

tbach24 · #2 01-26-2005, 06:34 PM

Nice post. There are two sides to this argument:

1. You don't want to be building a pot out of position.
2. You don't want to let inferior hands to see the flop for free.

I think that the 2nd part outweighs the first part, therefore I like a raise, however I'm not sure if your's is the most appropriate. I'd like to see what other posters think.

LuvDemNutz · #3 01-26-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The other day I had AK and it was five or six limpers to me in the BB. I didn't want to check of course, but also didn't really like the idea of 3 or so callers, so I decided to make it an even $100, making a $30 overbet. Much like I expected, they all folded (I dont play LAG or have that image).

But what if someone calls? Do I assume I'm second-best on the flop unless an ace or king comes? If I do hit, I probably won't be paid off, and if I do get it all in I'm most likely beat.
If I do the same with big pairs, people can't call and bluff when I miss, which makes this even more of a 'win it or be forced to check it down' situation. Is this bad?

What comes to mind is a hand in Ciaffone's book. He advocates to make an overbet in that spot with AJ, to most probably steal the pot right away, and do the same with AA, to balance your game. However, AK seems to 'in the middle' for that - neither a borderline good-ish hand not a monster. I think it's a waste to play it as either one of those.

What's your plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to here opinions from others on this as well. I often have a problem figuring out what to do with good but not great hands out of the blinds (AK, AQs, JJ).

bankrobber42 · #4 01-26-2005, 06:54 PM

I think what you did is fine. If someone calls you most likely there holding a small to medium pockets possibly AJ. They have no idea you are holding AK. Your oversized bet is would seem to others as if you have TT, JJ, QQ. So lets say the flop completly misses you and is J95 and you fire out a pot sized bet. I would have a diffilcult time calling with 44.

FourKing Hell · #5 01-26-2005, 07:39 PM

Although it'd be kinda nice if they did, I don't really see an AJ or 44 calling for 10BB. And I don't see any big pair calling and then folding whíthout the set - assuming 100BB stacks (I play online) and taking into account the possibility of losing to a bigger set, it would be dumb to call just for set value.

So basically at the time I made the play I was hoping they'd fold, and prepared to give up if someone called and I didn't improve.

iceman5 · #6 01-26-2005, 06:49 PM

What are the blinds?

FourKing Hell · #7 01-26-2005, 07:27 PM

In my example I was playing a 5/10 game on Prima. Actually it was four limpers to me and the SB, and a pot-size raise would have been 60 more. I made it 90 more.

riverboatking · #8 01-26-2005, 06:52 PM

you are missing some crucial bits of information.
how deep are the stacks.
and what is the flow of the game?
is the game very passive, or very aggressive?
are the stacks really deep?

these kinds of decisions are not cut and dry, however i will say this:
in deep stack play you have to mix it up, AKsuited is much better w/mulitway pots then AKoff.
also if there are a few very aggro players who like to play back at you then there is no need to raise out of position, because position is everything vs. an aggressive player.
however if the table is very passive post-flop and it is very easy to define your opponents holdings based on their actions then go ahead and make a raise.
but your raise should definately be big enough that you won't end up facing three callers.

also keep in mind the player who acts immediately after you, if he is a calling station then your play has a much lower chance of suceeding, because if he calls now you are much more likely to get a chain reaction of callers.

LuvDemNutz · #9 01-26-2005, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]

also keep in mind the player who acts immediately after you, if he is a calling station then your play has a much lower chance of suceeding, because if he calls now you are much more likely to get a chain reaction of callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate when that happens.

FourKing Hell · #10 01-26-2005, 07:34 PM

So if there's a limper in who's liable to play back at me I should just check and hope for a big hand, or a small pot with an A or K? I like to do that with AKs - although I probably like it even better to raise to 30 or so - but I figure with AKo I can't be much of a money favorite in the hand unless I hit at least two pair. Or am I being too scared here?

And about defining my opponent's hands - by the time I make a big raise, I'd probably define them down to the hands that beat me if I don't hit - and can't be bluffed or they wouldn't be stupid enough to call in the first place, with average stack sizes being around 1000, and will fold if I hit. So.. a smaller raise?