limit cash games vs. tournaments

[poker1O1]

I'm a pretty good limit cash game player, usually 10 tabling PP 3/6, and I'm interested in playing in some limit multi table tournaments. I was wondering how these differ from limit cash games. Obvioulsy your reads have to be more accurate in a tournament than a cash game because u have a limited "bank roll", but I've read before that some players 3bet suited connectors in tournaments, obviously player dependant, but still. Also, as compared to NL tournaments, would it be correct to assume that there is a little more luck needed in limit tournaments because you'll usually need a hand to showdown as opposed to NL?

[poker1O1]

any help appreciated

[CardSharpCook]

In general, I play Limit tournies exactly like I play 20/40 Limit cash games. There are a couple differences.

1) The Power of the Short Stack: Having 1-3 BBs isn't so very terrible, because one well-timed all-in takes a 2BB stack to 5BBs or more. Not profound, of course, but it comes into play when you are sitting on 6BBs and looking at a marginal hand that, if played, will commit your entire stack. It is more OK to fold and wait in this situation than it would be in NL.

2) Tricksy Plays: You have more FE in a tourney than in cash games, particularily late. Also, people generally have what they are representing, so you can't bluff someone off a good hand, but you can get someone to fold say KQ on a AKJ4 board.

3) Decreased Ability to Value Bet: While the best Limit tourney players are still value betting like crazy, you need to be more careful when you do so, because a poorly timed VB will cost you 2BBs which will often make up a significant portion of your stack.

Disspelling Myths:

1) luck is a huge part of poker, but it isn't more applicable in Limit. You need to be able to showdown a hand. This means you can't blow someone out of the water with your gutshot AI bluff, rather you must/should have the discipline to simply fold your gutshot rather than counting on the luck of inducing an incorrect fold or hitting your miracle 4-outer. Personally, I think there is more skill involved in a limit tourney. I believe the initial EV advantage of a skilled player is significantly greater than that of their NL counterparts.

2) Wild plays like 3betting 78s are the norm. No, sir, these players are quickly recognized for the donks they are and either they get lucky or they quickly crash and burn. True, you will see a player get to an FT playing this way, but most FTers are simply solid limit players.

3) You can't get people to stop chasing. Well this isn't true either. True, they'll often have odds to correctly chase and that can be very frustrating to a NL player, but good players fold when it is correct to do so and bad players will pay you off drawing to a hand that can't possibly be good.

4) Limit tournies are no fun. If you don't get past the first 2 hours, this is true. The first 2 hours are usually pretty dull, and involves donks getting wildly lucky or predictably bouncing out of the tourney (and sometimes the same donk will do both in the same hour). Good players sit back and watch the action while their own stacks increase or decrease by an AMAZING 10-25%. However, the later action more than makes up for it. In NL, the late game is a serious of steals, resteals, races, and unfortunate beats (KK vs QQ AI PF). In limit, you're still playing poker, seeing flops, manuevering and manipulating the table, making reads, and excercising discipline. I think this is a lot more fun than the NL late game.


One last note:

Limit tournies can be more forgiving than NL. One bad beat and you are done in NL, but in L, you can limit the damage a bad beat does to you. It takes a short series of misplayed hands, bad beats, or hands that just don't hit to knock you out of a Limit tourney. One hand won't break you, though it will cripple you. Limit has a safety net.

[prana]

I was gonna reply saying to wait for CardSharpCook to respond, decided not to but I now have to reply to say thank you, that was very insightful for being only 8 paragraphs or so. I primarily play NL MTT's but really appreciate that info as I haven't really focused on limit ever really.

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
2) Tricksy Plays: You have more FE in a tourney than in cash games

[/ QUOTE ]
Overall very nice post, but what is FE??

[CardSharpCook]

Fold Equity. The odds that someone will fold simply because you make a bet.

[ansky451]

great post.