Empire $1/$2, Overpair on Turn

[Cornboy]

This is an easy raise, right?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP :#A500AF(Villain 2)/ calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB :#A500AF(Villain 1)/ calls, MP :#A500AF(Villain 2)/ calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Villain 1 calls, Villain 2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, Villain 1 calls, Villain 2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain 1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain 2 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero....

[Transference]

You actually look to be in pretty bad shape here, any reads on these guys? If you have none, I'm inclined to call down. You raised preflop, raised a ragged flop after a 3 callers and its bet and raised into you on the turn. Youve been screaming overpair the whole way and these guys are firing into you on the big street. I can't lay it down here but a 3-bet might be excessive.

[Petro]

Ouch. Sucks that two Villains just woke up. I think it's very possible that you're up against a slow-played set, straight or tarded two-pair. The only hand that could logically play like Villain 2 that we beat is AT.
Raising seems like spewing. I'd probably call down and hate myself.
With any kind of passive read on villain 2, I'd fold.

[Cornboy]

(in response to both Trans and Petro)

I unfortunately didn't have any read whatsoever on them, I had just sat down, and have just begun playing 6max at Empire so I didn't have any stats.

Since it's $1/$2, I figured that really they could be playing a wide range of hands this way (AT, KT, Villian 1 possibly betting a straight draw), and wouldn't necessarily respect my raises to be an overpair. If it's $5/$10 or I know I'm up against competent opponents, I'd definitely call or fold like the two of you suggested. But against two $1/$2 unknowns? Seems like you both feel strongly about a call. I really don't know, heh.

Also - thanks for the responses - I've begun playing 6max and I'm really impressed by some of the discussion in this forum.

[sethypooh21]

Ick. I hate this spot without reads, considering that these are party/empire 1/2 chooks, literally no holding can be discounted. My gut says call down, but the problem with that is, one or both of these guys will probably go to war on the river with as little as KT, and do you really want to pay 8 bets to see show down with 1 pair?

Against competent opposition, this is a turbo-easy fold, I think.

[Buried]

[ QUOTE ]


Since it's $1/$2, I figured that really they could be playing a wide range of hands this way (AT, KT, Villian 1 possibly betting a straight draw), and wouldn't necessarily respect my raises to be an overpair. If it's $5/$10 or I know I'm up against competent opponents, I'd definitely call or fold like the two of you suggested. But against two $1/$2 unknowns? Seems like you both feel strongly about a call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget you're still up against THREE 1/2 unknowns. THe SB is still in; in fact, he bet out on the flop. The fact that the SB didn't reraise the flop and checked the turn makes me think he has a 5 or maybe A{234}.

If V1 has a smaller overpair like 66-88, would he have not raised preflop? I don't know, but I can't rule it out. He could be testing you by betting out on the turn. In the absolutely worst case, he's an extremely weak/passive player with TT, but I think the chances of that are low.

More worrisome is the raise by V2. In your best case, V2 has something like {KQJ}T and is betting his TPGK. In the worst case, he slowplayed flopped 2pr or a set. If he had flopped a set, I'd expect he would have call/3bet the flop. However, CO was ALSO in the hand at this point, and maybe he wanted to try to get the extra overcall.

Against 3 other players here (and the hand started with 4 other players), I'd have to check and see what happens. The turn isn't over yet; SB or V1 could raise again. There are 13BB in the pot when the turn action is to you and it costs you 2BB to call. If everyone calls and there are no reraises, there will be 18BB in the pot at the end of the turn. Against 2 pair you have 8 outs; against a set you have 2 outs; against a straight you are drawing dead. All other hands (except for AA/KK/QQ, which I think we can safely ignore) you are ahead.

I don't think a bet is a value bet here. I'd call and check/call the river. If they get into a raising war again on the river, you're not happy, but I've made the mistake of laying down a hand like this in Party 6max 1/2 and 5/10 games to big river action, only to find that I was actually good.

[Poldi]

Most players on 1/2$ are pretty passive, so if it comes raised to you despite the action you gave earlier, you are behind most of the time. Unless you know they are LAGs, raising is not good imo.
I would call this down..