Official Cyrus vs. MMMMMM Israel/Arabs Thread

[Cyrus]

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Official Cyrus vs. MMMMMM Israel/Arabs Thread

[/ QUOTE ] Actually, it is not. MMMMMM claimed that Islam is inherently closer to the intolerant philosophies that plagued Western Europe than Judaism. I am still waiting form MMMMMM to bring that nonsense up in a new thread.

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Cyrus has stated that Israel has nothing to fear [in military terms] from its neighbours as it is militarily stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. Is this even debatable ?

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But how much risk of a certain level of harm or even total destruction not from the sum of its neighbours, but from its most militarily capable and hostile foe, should Israel have to endure before it is justified in launching a pre-emptive strike to reduce that threat?

[/ QUOTE ]I have no hard and fast answer (or a "figure") for you. Pre-emptive, defensive, military action is something quite legitimate.

But, if you are referring to the Six Day War, well, since the numerous and serious revelations of the research undertaken by modern revisionist historians * (including a significant number of honest, honourable Israelis or simply Jewish), Israel had much, much less to fear at the time than it claimed. But the Six Day War is worthy of an entire, its own thread !

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A related question is does any Arab state need nuclear weapons?

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No, there is not, absolutely not. Not any longer. . The reason Arab states sought nuclear weapons in the past was NOT to face off or threaten America. They were not that stupid!

The reason they wanted nukes was to get on a somewhat closer pedestal to nuclear-armed Israel -- which still is the only country in the region, let's not forget, which possesses Weapons of Mass Destruction, i.e. nukes. (And this is not even debatable.)

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To what area of land is Israel entitled as a state?

[/ QUOTE ]Funny you should ask !

I am not aware of Israel declaring finally and resolutely that XYZ should be its rightful frontiers and nothing more. Israel, if you were to look up any maps of the region, keeps expanding its territory. some of the acquired territory is kept for good, some of it has an unknown future, while some of it is used for bargains. In any case, Israel has no official frontiers declared!

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Should Israel be entitled to keep more than the original boundaries of 1948 simply because they have been attacked in the past (the spoils of war)?

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Yes, Israel should be allowed to keep more than the 1948 boundaries. The Arabs, no matter what the cause or the villain(s) in this movie, lost four or five wars. This should count for something. The Arabs and especially the Palestinians, must seek accommodation with Israel, co-existence with an independent Palestinian state, or --better yet-- live inside one, democratic state which is ruled western-style, a s a republic, and with its security guaranteed by both the UN and America.

...Hey, guess what? The Palestinian leadership has gone the extra mile for all the declarations and denouncements and agreements that were required by Israel. But, guess what, Israel claims it's all hypocritical! I have no idea what can be realistically expected in such a situation.

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Should Israel be given more aid and support by the US according to the level of Islamic extremist violence against not just Israel but also throughout the entire world?

[/ QUOTE ] The degree of American assistance to Israel should be tied to the effort Israel shows towards a just and peaceful solution to the conflict. Let's go for the Bush Roadmap! I'd be all for it, personally.

However, Israel shows no signs of moving towards genuine peace. The leadership obviously reserves a future of pure second-class citizenry for the Palestinians, keep 'em as modern helots. The Palestinians see the writing in the wall. And start blowing themselves up. Desperation has set in, deeply and obviously.

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Should the degree of democracy/totalitarianism of Arab governments also factor in this?

[/ QUOTE ]All attempts towards democratisation of the Arab regimes were drowned repeatedly in blood by the local "anti-communist, nationalist, religious" leaderships, with the enthusiastic support of the United States.

The United States should not be acting like an agent of justice in punishing the totalitarian Arab regimes, but rather like someone who needs atonement. The blood of the hundreds of thousands of those pro-democracy agitators of the 50s, 60s and 70s is, at least partly, on Washington, too.



--Cyrus

* The term “revisionist historians” does not imply the ignoble bunch of Holocaust deniers.

[Jdanz]

i disagree that israel isn't making any strides for peace, Sharon leaving Likud is a big step. I think there is a great deal of inierta and entrenched power struggles, but i legitimately believe that Sharon is willing to work for peace.

This is certainly not a blanket endorsement of isreali pliticians only an acknowledgement that there are people on both sides struggling for a true peace (who know what the end result might be?)

[zipo]

>> Quote:
Cyrus has stated that Israel has nothing to fear [in military terms] from its neighbours as it is militarily stronger.

Yes. Is this even debatable ?<<

If you honestly don't believe Iran is a significant and credible military threat to Israel, then you have a *lot* of work to do to get up to speed.

Do that before commenting further, and perhaps we can have an intelligent, informed discussion.

[Cyrus]

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Cyrus has stated that Israel has nothing to fear [in military terms] from its neighbours as it is militarily stronger.

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Yes. Is this even debatable ?

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If you honestly don't believe Iran is a significant and credible military threat to Israel, then you have a *lot* of work to do to get up to speed.
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Do that before commenting further, and perhaps we can have an intelligent, informed discussion.

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If you honestly believe Iran is a neighbor to Israel, then you have a *lot* of work to do in your Geography to get up to speed.

Do that before commenting further, and perhaps we can have an intelligent, informed discussion.

[BluffTHIS!]

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If you honestly believe Iran is a neighbor to Israel, then you have a *lot* of work to do in your Geography to get up to speed.

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Missiles expand the size of the neighborhood considerably.

[zipo]

&gt;&gt;If you honestly believe Iran is a neighbor to Israel, then you have a *lot* of work to do in your Geography to get up to speed.&lt;&lt;

Perhaps your native language is not English, in which case you should avail yourself of a dictionary to inform yourself of the difference between a "bordering" country and a "neighboring" country.

In any case, it is painfully obvious that you deliberately ignored the salient point of my comment, which was to contest your ludicrous assertion that Israel has no enemies that pose a significant military threat.

Of course, your position is rationally indefensible, which I'm sure is why you chose to avoid further discussion of this issue.

[Cyrus]

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You should avail yourself of a dictionary to inform yourself of the difference between a "bordering" country and a "neighboring" country.

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What part of "Arab states" and "front-line states" do you find hard to understand? Ask and I shall explain -- once again.

I challenge you to point out a post of mine where I mention the term "bordering nation".

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You deliberately ignored the salient point of my comment, which was to contest your ludicrous assertion that Israel has no enemies that pose a significant military threat.

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Tsk tsk tsk. "Salient"; "ludicrous"! All that verbiage to refute a non-existent point!

I never claimed that Israel is not threatened. One or two of countries would surely like to harm Israel, if they could. I never claimed that Israel has no enemies. You simply dreamed this. (Can you find it in yourself to acknowledge your error and apologize?)

I will repeat, for the umpteenth time, what I wrote : " Israel has nothing to fear in military terms from its neighbours as it is militarily stronger." I went on to also posit that Israel is stronger militarily than at least all the front-line states combined!.

And I will now submit that this has practically always been the case.

...You know, we have not yet started to discuss this, in earnest. You seem stuck in the starting line of Pedantry. Let's hope you figure out the simple point I'm making, in order for us to discuss how the lack of military threat from the outside should have shaped Israeli foreign policy and America's policy towards the Middle East.

--Cyrus

[Gamblor]

The key doctrine that governs Israeli military policy is the notion that should any given Arab state lose a war, the citizens will still be part of an ethnic and religious majority in any other Arab country, while if Israel were to lose a war they would be dispersed back to Europe (or worse) and be once again living under the policies of a different ethical standard.

[zipo]

&gt;&gt;while if Israel were to lose a war they would be dispersed back to Europe (or worse)&lt;&lt;

Given the Iranian president's recent publicly proclaimed vow to "wipe Israel off the map", I'd say that they're looking at "or worse".

[cdxx]

i don't get it. the title of the thread and the OP led me to believe that there will be genuine discussion. i feel very strongly on the issue. nothing said here has made any sense yet.