$22: flop the nut straight, line check

bjb23 · #1 12-01-2005, 09:50 PM

second hand of tourney, no reads.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

Hero (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)
Button (t800)
SB (t800)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, 3 folds, MP3 calls t15, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t57.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets t15, Hero raises to t50, UTG+1 calls t50, MP3 calls t50, SB folds.

Turn: (t222.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t150, UTG+1 calls t150, MP3 folds.

River: (t522.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t125, UTG+1 raises to t400, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1047.50

how is the size of my turn bet?

my main question is do you fire a blocking bet on the river or no?

thanks.

splashpot · #2 12-01-2005, 09:55 PM

I'm check/calling the river. Provided his river bet isn't huge. A blocking bet doesn't make sense because the only thing you're afraid of is the flush. And a flush is pretty much always going to raise. A blocking bet is supposed to make your opponent call a small bet when he would have otherwise made a large bet that you can't call. Thus getting a relatively cheap showdown. You won't get him to do that here.

liucipher · #3 12-01-2005, 09:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A blocking bet is supposed to make your opponent call a small bet when he would have otherwise made a large bet that you can't call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't a blocking bet also be used to dissuade large bluffs?

pineapple888 · #4 12-01-2005, 10:09 PM

Flop and turn look fine. I don't see much reason to bet the river, since if he hit the flush, he's raising anyway. Check/call or check/fold depending on the size of his bet.

bjb23 · #5 12-01-2005, 11:08 PM

i know what you guys are saying but if i check the river, doesnt that give him a phantom out that he is more likely to represent with a big bet on the river? granted, the 22s dont have quite that much sophistication but checking the river just seemed like i was asking for a bluff at the time.

dont you think that the only hand he really raises me on the river is a flush so i can be pretty much certain he has the flush? dont you think it would have cost me more to call a bet on the river?

im not saying that my line is any good, just trying to give some justification for my donkness.

thanks for the responses, guys.

edit: btw, if you check/call on the river, what is the max amount youd call here?

#6 12-01-2005, 11:47 PM

I like the blocking bet on the river because:
1.You can get some hands that you beat like a5 or 66 to call.
2.It discourages big bluffs.
3.If you had checked the river and utg+1 had a flush, he was probably going to bet around 300 or 400 anyway, which would have been tough to lay down. The blocking bet gave you the same information cheaper.

bjb23 · #7 12-02-2005, 06:14 PM

sorry to bump my own thread but this hand is bothering me.

is the guy really raising my river bet with set/twopair/nonflush/bluff often enough to make check calling a better play?

... and how much is too much to call on the river if i do check call?

another problem i have is that if he bets big on the river then it is likely a bluff and he doesnt want a call but i cant call b/c it is too much of my stack to risk... if that makes any sense. so the only bets i can call are the bets that worry me b/c he is betting small enough where it seems like he wants a call.

wow, that is a lot of the word "call" in one post.

sorry if this hand sucks... maybe its just me. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

pineapple888 · #8 12-02-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sorry to bump my own thread but this hand is bothering me.

is the guy really raising my river bet with set/twopair/nonflush/bluff often enough to make check calling a better play?

... and how much is too much to call on the river if i do check call?

another problem i have is that if he bets big on the river then it is likely a bluff and he doesnt want a call but i cant call b/c it is too much of my stack to risk... if that makes any sense. so the only bets i can call are the bets that worry me b/c he is betting small enough where it seems like he wants a call.

wow, that is a lot of the word "call" in one post.

sorry if this hand sucks... maybe its just me. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand all your concerns, but the problem here is that, throughout the hand, you've been saying "I have a made hand" and he's been saying "I'm chasing anyway" or "I have a monster".

A small bet by you on the river doesn't change that situation one bit. It's still the same set of questions.

Now, we could go into infinite loops as to how those questions get answered... involving various levels of indirection... at that point it just comes down to "playing poker", making the best decision you can in the face of uncertainty.

But I can see no reason to increase your risk/reward in this situation by betting, because of ICM considerations if nothing else.

Hope this makes sense and is somewhat helpful.