Dignity

In one sense of the word pride, yes, it is a synonym. I won't use pride because of the many other connotations of the word. Let's clear things up: regardless of the word, the definition I'm using is this: sense of self-worth OR sense of the worth of humanity in general by humans (IOW how high humans regard humanity).

It is my understanding that Christians have a rather low regard for self and for humanity compared to people with other ideologies.

[Matt R.]

That's one hell of a logical leap you're making. Are you sure you don't have a "hidden agenda"?

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It depends of course what the non-Christian is. In my case, I am an atheist.

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So, you're actually making this argument specifically for a Christian theist vs. an atheist.

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For me there is no "right" way to live, so I have to create values for myself. Dignity is a characteristic which I happen to value.

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I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that people who do not create values for themself have less dignity than those who do? Or are you saying that because you create your own values, you chose dignity to have high value, therefore you have more dignity than a Christian? If it's the latter, I have no idea why you make the assumption that Christians have low self-respect. If you could point out the connection, that would be great, because I don't see where it's coming from. If it's the former (that by creating values for yourself, you have more dignity), then you're telling me that you do not get any of your values from outside sources. Are you trying to tell me that your parents and society do not influence your values in any way? If not, how do you choose what your values are... is it simply on a whim? Christians happen to believe in the moral teachings of Jesus, so they follow them. The same way you follow the morality of society. If you have some issue with Jesus' ideology, I'd be interested to see where the disagreement is.

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For Christians, however, there is a God who commands. By virtue of his commanding nature, humans are thus relegated to be obeyers. Therefore, they lack any dignity other than that which this God decides to give them. Because he gives them dignity, and they don't have it on their own accord, it is a less significant dignity than that of the atheist's.

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God either exists or he doesn't. When a Christian chooses to believe in him, or an atheist chooses not to, he doesn't pop in and out of existence. Therefore, this argument carries little weight because if God exists, he has equal "authority" over everyone. If he doesn't, then he holds no authority over theists or atheists alike. If you're implying that choosing belief takes away ones dignity, I still don't see the connection. Most value systems for those that believe in God (I believe you're referring to Jesus in particular), are perfectly in line with accepted societal values.

No offense, but your argument is kind of all over the place, and I don't really see the connection you're attempting to make with belief in God and lack of dignity. So, if I'm picking the wrong points to argue, I apologize.

We are both coming from opposite ideologies so it's going to be hard to find any common ground. That said I don't think anything really meaningful is going to come out of this debate. It wasn't my intention to fuel a debate to begin with, actually. By "no hidden agenda" I meant I only wanted to hear others' opinions on this subject and not try to refute anybody. Just because I'm an atheist does not mean I'm always trying to convince believers they are wrong.

So far I haven't heard any convincing arguments that Christianity values human dignity very highly. You would be right in saying that Christians can have dignity and still be 'good Christians'. But, the amount of dignity (regard, esteem, self-respect) one has should be kept in check, no? If it gets too high it is considered 'prideful' (a sin). It would be better for the Christian to err on the side of humility and meekness than on the side of valuing oneself too highly.

If you don't agree with these last statements, Matt or BluffThis, I can look up corresponding scripture. Although I'm pretty sure this is pretty basic doctrine. Off the top of my head, Jesus says something like "the first shall be last and the last shall be first." He preaches humility, the sin of pride, etc. The OT teaches the infinite glory of god, the importance of not angering him by disobeying him. Nowhere do I recall any mention of the importance of human affairs, of purporting oneself with dignity, of there being any dignity to human life. Even if there is some minor reference to these things, it is hugely overshadowed by other doctrines, which makes me think dignity is of little importance to Christianity.

[BluffTHIS!]

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It is my understanding that Christians have a rather low regard for self and for humanity compared to people with other ideologies.

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And how could you possibly think that? The teachings of christianity are all about that we are the children of God. This confers an inestimable dignity on each person, and thus also on the whole human race. And you seem either unable or unwilling to note the difference between one having a proper sense of self-worth, and that not meaning that one's self-worth is somehow diminished by also understanding one's limititations and shortcomings and not acting pridefully in relations with others or before God, who created us, and thus to whom we should show the same respect and deference and obedience as a human child to its father.

I'm obviously arguing from a secular point of view. The only thing I'm unwilling to accept is your constant habit of assuming the truth of christianity when I'm trying to have a non-biased discussion.

[BluffTHIS!]

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I'm obviously arguing from a secular point of view. The only thing I'm unwilling to accept is your constant habit of assuming the truth of christianity when I'm trying to have a non-biased discussion.

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Well that is so funny. Why don't you read your own original post that started this thread. You asked what "dignity" meant to a christian and that is viewpoint from which my replies have been given.

You still don't get it. I do want a christian's viewpoint on dignity in living his life on earth. No assumption of the truth of christianity is needed for this answer.

[BluffTHIS!]

So you want the viewpoint of a christian, but want him not to assume christianity is true in giving it? I have told you what my viewpoint is, which is the catholic christian view. If I didn't believe christianity to be true then I wouldn't believe it that way. And since this is a viewpoint thing and not a proof thing, there really is no assumption of any kind. I haven't quoted the bible once as "proof" of anything, and I never do in debates with non-believers except to explain why I believe something.

Your asking a christian for a viewpoint but wanting him to first assume christianity isn't true, is the same as your asking a black man for an opinion on racial issues, but to first pretend he is white.

[RJT]

EV,

Read the book or watch the movie <u>To Kill A Mockingbird</u>. Check out the scene when Bob Ewell spits in Atticus Finch’s face. In the book Atticus remarks later, when talking about the incident, “I wish Bob Ewell wouldn’t chew tobacco”. The movie shows Atticus taking his handkerchief out of his pocket and with utter restraint simply wiping Ewell’s tobacco juiced saliva from his own face.

Atticus Finch is perhaps the most (certainly in the top 5) dignified character in all of literature (not limited to American Lit.) in my opinion. If you are familiar with the TKAM, then you have the answer to your question. If Atticus Finch doesn't answer your question, then I think you really aren’t looking for the Christian viewpoint of dignity.

RJT

Thanks RJT, that's a pretty clear definition of christian dignity. We can put this to bed now.

I think most of the disagreements in this discussion were a result of the word 'value' as I use it. Christians in general don't put a great deal of value on this life, so dignty would naturally be less valuable for them than it is for people who are concerned only with this life. Of course, so is everything else, but I chose to look at one aspect of life.