baccarat strategy?

[other1]

Let me say right up front.. I know baccarat is a -EV game and is therefore unbeatable. I'm not looking for prediction systems or card counting methods or anything like that.

I enjoy baccarat. It has a fairly small house edge...

My question is.. what is the best strategy to minimize your losses over time? Since there are basically no decisions to make for the player is there even a perfect way to play like there is for, say, BJ? Is it as simple as bet the bank every time and hope for a good shoe?

Thanks.

[Photoc]

I dealt bacc for 4 years. Bank bet 100% of the time.

Average is 80 hands/shoe.
8 of which are ties (10% and pays 8-1) Terrible bet
Leaves 72 hands...
Bank will average 37/72 and player will avg 35/72. The 5% commission makes of the 2 hand avg/shoe difference and thus makes this -EV.

Remember, these are averages, not exact. I've seen shoes that were 20 players 50 banks, 10 ties, and the opposite. I've even seen 17 ties in one shoe, which has a high probabilty against it, but is possible.

[Iceman]

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Let me say right up front.. I know baccarat is a -EV game and is therefore unbeatable. I'm not looking for prediction systems or card counting methods or anything like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Card counting doesn't really work in baccarat. Even if you could count perfectly, get 90% penetration, and spread 10:1, it still wouldn't be +EV.

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I enjoy baccarat. It has a fairly small house edge...

My question is.. what is the best strategy to minimize your losses over time? Since there are basically no decisions to make for the player is there even a perfect way to play like there is for, say, BJ? Is it as simple as bet the bank every time and hope for a good shoe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Always bet the bank, which is a tiny bit better than player. Whatever you do, never bet the tie.

Some European casinos allow players to control the play of the bank and player hands rather than having to use the fixed rules, and those games might allow +EV opportunities if you bet against someone who doesn't know what they're doing or if you play the bank hand against someone in the player hand whose non-verbal cues give away whether the card they drew helped or hurt them.

[other1]

So I guess bank every time and never bet tie is the optimal play such as it is.

Any ideas on betting/money management strategies? I guess they would be no different (and probably of questionable use) as at any other game where you can't gain an edge?

[playersare]

in addition to the info written above I would only add the following extremely minor details.

1. in terms of bankroll requirements, it's about the same as you would bring to a blackjack table. so for example if you plan to bet $50 per hand, then probably $1000-1500 will last you the entire session with minimal RoR.

2. if you can indeed afford it, try and play in the "fancy" baccarat room which is usually roped off from the rest of the casino floor. minimums are usually $50, though sometimes $25 depending on where you're playing. the main reason for this is not the glitz (though that's nice), rather that the hands are dealt out slower so you don't theoretically "lose" as much per hour as you would playing the mini-baccarat tables at the same denomination. also, playing in the fancy room can likely net you more in comps (RFB) than playing on the main floor. of course, if it turns out that you can only afford to play less than $25 a hand, then mini-baccarat will probably be your only choice.

3. a small handful of casinos may offer a 4% banker commission instead of 5%. meaning that they take $1 out of $25 wins instead of $20 wins (many casinos use special $20 denom chips just for baccarat). this will reduce the house edge from 1.06% down to 0.60%, comparable to basic strategy blackjack.

4. if you have a REALLY good relationship with your casino host (read: big money loser), then it's possible to negotiate a 'loss rebate' agreement on your unlucky days - usually around 10-15% - without having to pay anything back on your good days! used in combination with agressive comps including airfare cash reimbursement, a high-volume player can have him/herself a reasonably priced casino excursion relative to the theoretical amount lost in actual games.

all of this being said, mathematically you would have a much better deal playing blackjack, video poker, or live poker instead.

[other1]

I play almost exclusively @ Borgata. I do play the 'real' baccarat which is in the high stakes room there. I don't enjoy mini-bacc at all.

Borg's min is $100. I'm fine using $100 as a unit. I'll usually sit down with 10-20 units. I seem to usually be able to get to a position where I find myself up 10-15 units but am not always smart enough to walk away at this point and often give it all, or usually more, back. This is why I'm wondering if there is a smarter way to bet.. And yes, I know the best strategy is to avoid betting on bank as well as player and tie, but what fun is that? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[playersare]

at $100 a hand at the big room at the Borgata, the casino is "making" about $60 an hour from you in the long run. your only strategy is just making sure you get your money's worth of entertainment and complimentaries in return. presumably you are already Black Card status there (if not, probably in no time), so beyond that it's best to have access to a good casino host who can handle all the "little things" for you while you're there.

it's definitely a good idea to avoid the tie bet completely, but seeing that the house advantage on the player bet is only slightly higher at 1.29% vs. banker at 1.06%, it wouldn't bankrupt you to mix up your play a little during the session, and even use those superstitious paper charts to keep track of wins and losses. this way the casino may see you more of a pure gambler as opposed to someone specifically trying to get the most out of his playing dollar, and be more liberal with 'perks' to keep you happy. try to always act appreciated and surprised when they offer you something, and they'll show more initiative to you in the long run, making it a "win/win" in what is otherwise a losing proposition.

[Iceman]

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Any ideas on betting/money management strategies? I guess they would be no different (and probably of questionable use) as at any other game where you can't gain an edge?

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Betting systems can't change the odds at all - they just redistribute your wins and losses.

If you flat bet on banker, your sessions will be divided between moderate wins, roughly break-even, and moderate losses, with the third category slightly larger than the first, and with your overall losses averaging to about 1% of the total amount you bet.

If you use the Martingale System (double your bet after every loss, return to minimum after any win), then in the short-term you will have many small wins but you will also have a tiny but realistic chance of a huge loss. In the long-run, you will lose the same 1% of the total amount you bet.

[joshman1204]

It should be mentioned that the long run is some where in the neighborhood of 1 million hands. Many people can use betting systems all their lives and still show a profit the day they die because in reality they only played 10 or 20k hands and never made it to the "long run".

[pzhon]

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It should be mentioned that the long run is some where in the neighborhood of 1 million hands.

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No, it shouldn't be mentioned, in part because that is not true. You will go bankrupt before you double up more than 50% of the time. To have a good chance not to go bankrupt in 1 million hands on a martingale system, you need to start with several hundred thousand units.

The original poster was talking about bringing 15 units to the table. These probably wouldn't last an hour with a martingale system.

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Many people can use betting systems all their lives and still show a profit the day they die because in reality they only played 10 or 20k hands and never made it to the "long run".

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I strongly doubt that. However, many people lie about their results, to themselves and to others. They will quietly ignore and discount losing sessions, while telling everyone about the winning ones.