The spread of Christianity

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C.S. Lewis was an athiest who set out to do exactly that. Instead, he became one of the most vocal proponents of Christianity.

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And so was Josh McDowell. I've read his books. It doesn't prove anything, though. Everybody was an atheist before they started believing in God.

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Furthermore, legends like the one you claim generally take a significant length of time to develop.

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The mythos was already there.

[Lestat]

I really appreciate your well thought-out and coherent response.

What I don't understand is that you can live a life of meaning, love, friendship, honesty, and forgiveness, without needing a belief in God. And since there is zero evidence which points to the existence of a God, your beliefs must stem from something other than earthly goals. It seems the most likely reasons are to bank on an after-life, or to insure you won't be going to hell. Both of these things are fear based.

You said yourself that the most ardent criminal can get into heaven. I presume the pre-requesite is to believe. But this belief would have to manifest out of a desire for an after-life or a fear of eternal damnation. What other reasons would he have to believe?

[txag007]

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Furthermore, legends like the one you claim generally take a significant length of time to develop.

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The mythos was already there.

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The Church was founded in the same lifetime as those who experienced the resurrection. If it didn't happen and was all a myth, it would not have caught on so quickly. The fact that it was made up would have been obvious.

[TheQ]

Actually, I'm kind of afraid of external life. Can you imagaine? All I know is, from here on earth. Everything ages. Buildings get old and fall down. DNA mutates and we die. Planes eventually crash. What about a soul? Say I get to heaven, and it really is as great as it's supposed to be, but murphys law kicks in? Given an infinite amount of time, to screw up, and get kicked out of heaven? That would be really sucky. But will it eventually happen? All I can do is hope God helps me when I get there. I am imperfect, but assume God is perfect. He will have to help me, from screwing up. Forever. To have something (admission to heaven) and then losing it (getting kicked out, eternally) would be the ultimate loss.

But I try anyway.

[TheQ]

I see throughout the Bible (and probably before) God destroying the evil people.Look at Noah (the only just man at the time) EVERYONE was drowned except the Godly. God Himself is involved with who has children and who doesn't. In exodus, all the Jews were expelled from egypt, but God killed many of them. Then he had Isreal destroy the nations (utterly) from the land they were to inhabit.

I see it over and over again, as I read along. God seems to deciding on where evolution takes us. Killing evil kings, and ALL his sons and relatives.

Makes me wonder if some people are geneticlly predisposed to God, and others aren't....

Very controversial idea, but I still wonder...

[Mempho]

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What I don't understand is that you can live a life of meaning, love, friendship, honesty, and forgiveness, without needing a belief in God.

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I think this is where the difference lies. Yes, you can love without being a Christian (I was not a Christian when I left home). Yes, you can be honest, forgive, have friends, etc. without a belief in God. Notice I left out meaning. This does not mean that your life had no meaning to this earth. For instance, I have no idea if Jonas Salk was a Christian or not. As far as the world is concerned, it does not matter because his work left a legacy on this earth...so his life did have meaning. Everyone leaves some type of a legacy, positive or negative.

The meaning that I am speaking of is much more deeply rooted than one's work. It is difficult to explain except to say that one day every person who lives long enough will wake up one day and wonder what he or she did it all for. I mean, people work their entire lives at jobs they hate just for the chance of a couple of years of peace before they die. Most of the time, we live on a fairly short time horizon. We think of today, tommorrow, the weekend, etc. I have always had a long time-horizon in that I can think a few years ahead...possibly that's why I had an internal crisis. I thought about graduation, going to work, and after a few years of that, I realized that I was nothing more than a monkey on a treadmill. This was deeply disturbing to me and so I began to search for answers. I feel fortunate in that most people keep their time horizon very short until something terrible or tragic happens while my long-time horizon showed me my "mid-life crisis" in my twenties. A lot of people, however, look back and wonder what happened to their life. Sometimes they look for answers and sometimes the bottom falls out.

And, after thinking it through this entire post, perhaps you are correct in the end. I wanted to know the object of the game before I got in over my head for the same reason that I didn't play 20/40 before I played 2/4. I wanted to know the endgame before I got started. I didn't arrive at out of a fear of hell, however. I arrived at that point because I finally figured out (after thinking years ahead and seeing no end) that I couldn't make it alone. Christians believe that everyone longs for God's love and seeks to find it. Christians believe that humans are created that way so it would be impossible, from a Christian perspective, to live a long life and be fully fulfilled apart from God because eventually the treadmill will wear you out. Remember, one of the things that is univerally cited as a human need as much as food, air, water, and shelter is hope. That hope is selfish in a way, but God basically says that is OK because it is impossible for us to be completely selfless...no matter how good our intentions. I sincerely believe that there are no atheists in foxholes. Most people believe they can make it until they find out they can't. They either admit that they need help or they don't...to ask for help is humbling (did you ever ask a poker question that you felt might be stupid). That is the most difficult part for most people, to admit that they have failed. People lie to themselves for decades to not admit their own failure.

[Mempho]

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Actually, I'm kind of afraid of external life. Can you imagaine? All I know is, from here on earth. Everything ages. Buildings get old and fall down. DNA mutates and we die. Planes eventually crash. What about a soul? Say I get to heaven, and it really is as great as it's supposed to be, but murphys law kicks in? Given an infinite amount of time, to screw up, and get kicked out of heaven? That would be really sucky. But will it eventually happen? All I can do is hope God helps me when I get there. I am imperfect, but assume God is perfect. He will have to help me, from screwing up. Forever. To have something (admission to heaven) and then losing it (getting kicked out, eternally) would be the ultimate loss.

But I try anyway.

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Agreed. I don't think you can get kicked out...but I remember that a third of the angels did. Scary thought...I also wonder if I would get bored.

[Lestat]

Again, a very well thought out post, but I think you're straying a bit off topic.

I can point you to many, many atheists who are perfectly content that they lead very meaningful and happy lives. It is not necessary to have a belief in God for these things. At least not on an earthly level.

But perhaps you've answered my question anyway. Some people need God or religion to give them hope. The alternative reality is too depressing for them. That reality is that one day we will all die and never be again. One day our sun and earth will die and none of this will matter. Better to hope for an after life and that our existence has some greater meaning. It's a nice thought... But unfortunately it is most likely just that. A thought,.. a hope,... and nothing more.

[Mempho]

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Again, a very well thought out post, but I think you're straying a bit off topic.



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Yes. At the end, I pretty much concede that.

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I can point you to many, many atheists who are perfectly content that they lead very meaningful and happy lives. It is not necessary to have a belief in God for these things. At least not on an earthly level.


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I did leave 20+ years without God...I went to church with the family from time to time, but that can hardly be considered belief. I was socially very liberal at the time. I can see your point with this. If I had not had to deal with the tragedy, I doubt any of this would have taken place because I actually had little interest in spiritual matters. I was quite simply apathetic about the whole situation.

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But perhaps you've answered my question anyway. Some people need God or religion to give them hope. The alternative reality is too depressing for them. That reality is that one day we will all die and never be again. One day our sun and earth will die and none of this will matter. Better to hope for an after life and that our existence has some greater meaning. It's a nice thought... But unfortunately it is most likely just that. A thought,.. a hope,... and nothing more.

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I certainly realize the plausability of this. I've heard it before but its usually an insult to Christians (you certainly did not use it in that tone) that seems to state that they are "emotionally weak." The emotionally weak are certainly easier to indoctrinate into religions, but I don't think that applies to even the majority of Christians.

My basis is a little more complicated than that and its probably more indicative of the average Christian. I concluded a long time ago that a
creator existed. If we were to debate about the existence of God, I would keep asking, "Where did the dust come from?" and then "Where did the photons come from?" I am unable to accept that they just existed and then they came together and went *bang* and it all came into being as a cosmic accident. While this is another argument altogether, I am fully educated in the scientific theories regarding the origins of the universe and I keep having to go down another layer. I have found out that this is an impossible argument for either side to prove and it eventually becomes an infinate argument.

That said, I did decide there was a creator. My approach, then, was very different from that of an atheist. Thus, when these questions came to me, I had no qualms about asking God. I did not really have trouble with the eat, drink, and be merry concept associated with godless societies because it did not sound all that bad. I was embracing the concept at the time...but I did not actually believe that there was no God. Therein was the flaw. I could not go on living as if I believed differently. Since that was a core belief, I had to reconcile it.

An atheist can come about it from a totally different perspective and feel fine with it. The reason that I said that I did not think there were atheists in foxholes is that doubt always crosses the mind when death is imminent. That said, many Christians fear death because they also doubt. Generally, the only ones that don't fear death are those that are in so much pain that it feels as if nothing could be worse than what they are going through now or those who are killed instantly. Put anyone on their deathbed and they will doubt. You and I will be no different. Right now, death seems distant for both of us though.


That said, I have many of the same questions that you have about the Christian God. I have gotten theist answers to all of these, but they still have not been reconciled in my heart.

1) How could a loving God sentence someone to eternal damnation?

2) If an Omnipotent God created the heavens and the earth and the angels, then he created Lucifer. If he created Lucifer, is evil in the world his fault? If so, how could he be all loving?

3) If Christianity is the only way, do Muslims have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ? If not, can they be sentenced to hell? If the answer is yes, how is this fair and just?


These are complex questions that I have some theories about but no concrete answers. I just wanted to let it be known that I did not take the decision lightly and I still have questions that persist.

[RJT]

Lestat,

This post isn’t necessarily directed to you, but to the general discussion. You seem very objective in your analysis.

Why is it ok for Science to learn new things and adapt itself to new found knowledge, but it is verbotem for Religion to evolve in its understanding of God and man’s relationship to God?

Years ago Science thought the Earth was flat and the Sun revolved around the Earth. No one suggest would suggest that Science is nonsense because of such things. We learn, we re-interpret.

In the cpsan2 show that I referenced last night, Dr. Coyne used the span of one year to show man’s relationship to the estimated time of the Earth ( I think it was the Earth, might have been the Universe, either way…) Man has only existed for the last 2 seconds of the year. Science has existed only the last second of the year. Man/science are babies. We have so much to learn.

My Church had the custom (and still does to some extent) to give up certain things during our Lent - to not eat certain foods. We were not “permitted” to eat meat on Fridays all the time (now it is fine to do so.) Times have changed. Now we try to do (even more) good things during Lent, rather than simply making sacrifices. The Church has taken a more positive approach to life and our relationship to our God.

Regarding believing in God based on fear. I agree this is a poor reason. I believe in God because I think He is a God of love. It is the love from God that I desire. I think He offers it to us and it is a matter of accepting it or not. I choose Christianity and try to live a Christian life for this life and the after-life. I think most would find it hard to disagree with the premise of living a Christian life on Earth. Whether there is an after-life is the decision. I don’t choose belief out of fear of Hell, rather that I wish to partake in the Kingdom of God. If Hell is simply the absence of God once one is dead, then that is no different than what the atheist thinks anyway. I really don’t see the big debate. Choose belief or not.

RJT