A Party 15/30 hand

philnewall · #1 03-17-2005, 03:48 PM

Preflop raise was pretty marginal, thoughts on my flop/turn play? I don't often lead into the raiser like that, and I think it was a good situation to try it. I was planning on floding to a raise.

Comments?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.83 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 5.83 BB

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins 5.83 BB.

TStoneMBD · #2 03-17-2005, 03:51 PM

this is an uberstandard preflop raise, dont be confused.

you should checkraise this flop. there is a good chance that you will be 3bet but dont let that slow you down, you will often be 3bet by a pocket pair with a heart. your hand is likely good at this point and you need to protect it.

philnewall · #3 03-17-2005, 03:52 PM

That is what I would usually do, but this time I decided to play differently...

jgorham · #4 03-17-2005, 04:01 PM

I really don't like that line. Without a read that says this player has super loose 3betting standards, we can assume hero is up against AA-JJ (AA being very unlikely), AK, or possibly AQ. Those hands may have hearts in them, or they may not. In any case by checkraising the flop you are putting in more money when you are dominated (very bad), or allowing a pocket pair to fold (bad).

Check call the flop and turn, lead the river (unless the player is super aggro, in which case checkcall river as well). The only time I would vary from this line would be if a heart fell, in which case I would bet but fold to a raise.

pokerjo22 · #5 03-17-2005, 04:27 PM

I think those are rather tight 3-betting standards for the button. TT-88 are all at least possible too. I kinda like the line the OP took since a bet or a check-raise on the flop does so little to protect his hand from a lone heart.

jgorham · #6 03-17-2005, 06:06 PM

Those hands are certainly possible, but I feel they are much less likely against a total unknown. In any case, I feel like any 3betting hand will bet the flop and turn when checked to regardless of whether or not they have a heart. So when they do have a heart (and not an ace that dominates you) the checkraise line gains you one small bet (when the flush doesn't get there). But that is the only time that line helps you. Against A K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or A Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] it costs you money, against an ace without a heart it costs you money, and against a pocket pair without a heart it costs you money (when they fold).

So all in all you are costing yourself by checkraising that flop or leading the turn.

TheBusiness · #7 03-17-2005, 09:39 PM

I like how you put the results in white at the end, even though we already knew the results. That was sweet.

philnewall · #8 03-18-2005, 07:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Check call the flop and turn, lead the river (unless the player is super aggro, in which case checkcall river as well). The only time I would vary from this line would be if a heart fell, in which case I would bet but fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that just allows a heart to make a flush on me too cheaply.

jgorham · #9 03-18-2005, 05:17 PM

If they have a pocket pair with a heart and are drawing for the flush, they may check behind on the turn which would cost you. However if they have a bigger ace or a pocket pair without a heart, then it is better to let them do the betting for you, which will give you some bluff equity if a fourth heart falls. And it is more likely that they have a bigger ace or a pair without a heart.

philnewall · #10 03-18-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If they have a pocket pair with a heart and are drawing for the flush, they may check behind on the turn which would cost you. However if they have a bigger ace or a pocket pair without a heart, then it is better to let them do the betting for you, which will give you some bluff equity if a fourth heart falls. And it is more likely that they have a bigger ace or a pair without a heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt that I would bluff into a 4th heart, my handsjust too good, if they have a hand better than me, they'll call hoping I'm bluffing, and all I'll manage to fold are hands worse than mine.

My main concern was not to give that free card for the flush on 4th street, and I also wanted to find out where I was as cheaply as possible, as a flop check-raise wouldn't have defined my hand as much as the line i took.