Come yell at me (very iffy turn 3-bets with river checks)

[TheMetetron]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Dude here is 50/30/2.

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (10 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10 BB


This dude was a LAG, but I can't remember the numbers.


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9 BB


I'm on a nice 120 BB downswing the last few days and I'm 90% sure made these plays out of frustration, both within a few minutes of each other. They are in no way standard for me. There may be some merit to the first one, however. I need to think about it now.

[milesdyson]

in hand 1 will the guy not fire off a desperation bluff with a busted draw if that's what he has on the turn?

meaning you will always get 3 bets out of him by just calling down if this is his holding.

you will also never risk being capped, and you also keep the chance to raise him on a river T or A, as opposed to him check/calling after your sign of strength on the turn.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
in hand 1 will the guy not fire off a desperation bluff with a busted draw if that's what he has on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was something I was thinking about. Problem is, not everyone will do this. MOST will, but not all.

Also, if this is a total bluff, I'd like him to fold to my turn 3-bet right there. So there is another side to it.

[ QUOTE ]
You will also never risk being capped

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's capping, I'm folding. I know how to handle a cap fine, so it's not a big issue.

[ QUOTE ]
you also keep the chance to raise him on a river T or A, as opposed to him check/calling after your sign of strength on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't mean anything. Either way I can get in 1 extra bet if I hit on the river.

[milesdyson]

yeah, that is the other side - having him fold 6 outs here getting 9:1 is great.

this is a very hard problem to quantify really - on this board i would assume there are too many made hands or worthy draws that he will definitely call with to really make this factor very significant.

i still think the fact that he is likely to lead with his bluffs unimproved is the overriding factor.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
i still think the fact that he is likely to lead with his bluffs unimproved is the overriding factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

I can get him to put in the same amount of bets (except now guaranteed), but with the added benefit of him folding hands I want him too. Also, I was going to put in 3 bets here anyways, so there is no downside I can find to 3-betting the turn.

The only thing that screws with me is him donking a blank river as a bluff. I doubt this happens much though after I show so much turn strength; he can't expect a fold.

[Ryno]

"i still think the fact that he is likely to lead with his bluffs unimproved is the overriding factor."

This is a correct thought in many situations, where you get your 3bets if he misses but save a bet when he hits. But it is also very important to show LAGs that when they checkraise the turn, they are risking more than just 2 bets. If you can get a 50/30/2 to ease up and check-call more often vs. you, now you have a bona-fide fish at your table (rather than a fish who can bite every so often).

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you also keep the chance to raise him on a river T or A, as opposed to him check/calling after your sign of strength on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't mean anything. Either way I can get in 1 extra bet if I hit on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah you're right

[Victor]

i cant see how your line is superior to calling down, especially against the lag who will bet when he misses anyway.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
i cant see how your line is superior to calling down, especially against the lag who will bet when he misses anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my posts. You'll see my reasoning. Let me know why you disagree.

I think hand #2 is more interesting, but I haven't had a chance to think about it too much yet.

[TheMetetron]

So with hand 1...

I'm folding to almost any bet on the river, unless I improve.

If I had just called, I probably fold to completed draws. This should make a difference IMO, because in these cases I was only going to put in 2 bets originally and now I've put in 3.

On the flip side, if I hit, I've gotten in 4 big bets instead of just 3, so the effect of not putting in that 3rd bet on the river by folding is mitigated.

Also, there is some % of the time I'm going to call a river draw completing card.

It's very hard to compute all of this, but at least I'm coming up with some reasons against what I did. Not sure how strong the arguments are either way, though I'm sure the knee-jerk reaction is to just call the turn. At the very least, exploring other options will prove a decent learning tool.