Working on agression/protection

Bankuri · #1 09-08-2005, 11:40 AM

As usually happens, when I re-read SSHE I go on a bad run. Most of my current run is just bad luck coupled with bad cards, but some of it is certainly my attempts at putting Ed's more aggressive style of play into my game. Here are a few hands from today's session that I felt I misplayed.

First, the PP tables are extremely tight of late but I'm still seeing a lot of really poor hands played (seems people call with anything from the blinds even when they are working of bonuses). But, it's been 4 or fewer to the flop most of the time today.

Ok, on to the hands.

Hand 1: Premium pair on scary board. MP2 seems to be a decent player. Tight, but they all are.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 5 folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

This is an auto-bet for me (should it be?). The FD and possible nut straight draws are a concern but I almost never check after raising a premium pair.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Not being raised on the flop I figured I'm good and bet out. Don't want MP2 getting a free card on a gutshot. At the time, the raise didn't scream 'Straight' to me...should it have? At this point I'm calling to showdown.

River: (8.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Hand 2: I've played with UTG before and he seems to be a bit LAG'y.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP2 folds, Hero raises, UTG calls.

free play in the blinds give me TPNK. Villian is a lag so I don't respect his bet at all. My raise here
is for value and is a place where I wonder if I've taken SSHE's advice too far.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

Not giving up here.

River: (5.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

I check the river because my made hand is weak and I figure I'll only get called/raised by a hand that beats me...cheapest showdown.

Hand 3: And finally, a hand where lack of pre-flop aggression may have cost me a pot

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

I'm first to enter this pot. At the time I thought of raising but chickened out. I think a raise here is the right thing...comments?

Flop: (3 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero calls, SB calls.

Ok, got my set but why didn't I re-raise? I suppose I was thinking of waiting for the turn as this was not a very coordinated flop. Was this as bad as I think it is now?

Turn: (4.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Ok, now it's time to get some chips in the pot.

River: (12.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

I lost all three of these hands. I'll post the results after comments.

KingOtter · #2 09-08-2005, 11:52 AM

Hand 1 is fine. I play it the same, but only because of the ace on board. If a paint hits on the turn with no ace on that board I'm 3-betting.

Hand 2 I'd probably bet out, call a raise and check/fold a turn unimproved.

Hand 3 made me groan. You have to raise that flop. There isn't any need to protect a set. You need to pump it. If hand 3 turned out to be set over set then there really wasn't a well-played way to avoid losing money, because you should be pushing it as far as they'd let you. If he shows this much aggression on the turn after a capped flop, then call the river, but it will still be expensive.

KO

Mike Z · #3 09-08-2005, 11:56 AM

Do you have stat's (PT) on the players?

tiltaholic · #4 09-08-2005, 11:58 AM

hand 1 is ok
hand 2 i lead the flop
hand 3 you absolutely must raise preflop. then 3-bet the flop.

jrz1972 · #5 09-08-2005, 12:02 PM

Hand 1 is fine. You could dump this in a multiway pot, but once its HU I think you need to get this to showdown.

Hand 2: I lead the flop and keep leading until somebody raises. The way you played it I lead the river. I'm not sure what you were trying to do on the flop.

Hand 3: Open-limping on the button is awful. I don't want to be overly harsh because I know you're looking for constructive criticism and you know you made a mistake, but it really is pretty much a cardinal sin. Never do this. Post-flop, jam the hell out of every street, starting with the flop.

closer2313 · #6 09-08-2005, 12:06 PM

Hand 1

Preflop/Flop are fine
Turn- Bet is good, but, What do you think he is raising here on the turn that you beat? You said he is a decent player. I can't see him raising here without at least a pair of aces or better.

See, you raise preflop then bet the flop. You probably have at least a good pair in the hole or TPGK on the flop. He would consider that if he is a decent player. Also remember that a raise is usually a sign of more strength than a bet. I cant see him raising a ten or a queen here. If he is really aggressive I call down. If he is more passive/neutral... meh, I probably still call down since its heads up.

Hand 2
I lead this flop because you can't count on anyone to bet it for you. Letting it get checked through and letting somone outdraw you for Free is a mistake.

Turn/River I play the same usually. If I think he will call down with any piece I would bet the river.

Hand 3

You say you want to be more aggressive? Look at preflop, this is a really easy raise. The flop is an easy 3 bet. Turn/River look good depending on how aggressive BB is.

deception5 · #7 09-08-2005, 12:18 PM

Hand 1: When a tight/decent player waits till the turn to raise the preflop raiser on an ace high flop, you are way behind too often to call down. You can consider calling to try for your straight if you have odds, but my plan would be to check/fold the river.

Hand 2: Looks fine. Whether you won or lost this hand is irrelevant. I would tend to bet the river unless you think there's a good chance checking will induce a bluff. If you bet you'll be called by a 3/5/6/8 so there's plenty of value in a river bet.

Hand 3: You should almost never open limp in this situation. The exception to limping on the button is on page 197 in HEPFAP "When the blinds are loose". But 77 is still strong enough to raise even in that situation (that's more for hands like 22 and A6o). Pretty much anything you play when you are the first one in the pot in CO or on the button you should raise if there is any chance of the blinds folding (even as little as 30%). Even when they call, you'll often win with a flop bet if the board comes Axx because your opponents will assume you have the ace.

If you limp, you're giving them a free/discounted chance to beat you (and a hand like 98o would fold in the SB for a raise but often complete). Your hand isn't strong enough to take this kind of competition so go ahead and raise. I pretty much raise any pair, any ace, most kings and any 2 cards 9 and higher when I'm opening on the button. I also raise suited connectors down to around 76s/T8s. You don't need to raise that much, but considering you will have a positional advantage for the hand and will often win preflop it's worth considering. This is a situation that 6-max play will help you with.

On the flop you should definitely 3-bet. Both of your opponents have shown they like their hands and your coldcall is no less scary than a 3-bet on this board. It's unlikely that it would have changed the outcome, but there's no reason to slowplay when your opponents are being aggressive.

Edit: Good point, bet the flop in hand 2.

Bankuri · #8 09-08-2005, 01:16 PM

Thanks for the great discussions folks. I'm attaching the results to this post as it seems to cover the general consensus.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: When a tight/decent player waits till the turn to raise the preflop raiser on an ace high flop, you are way behind too often to call down. You can consider calling to try for your straight if you have odds, but my plan would be to check/fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian had 55 for a flopped set.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: Looks fine. Whether you won or lost this hand is irrelevant. I would tend to bet the river unless you think there's a good chance checking will induce a bluff. If you bet you'll be called by a 3/5/6/8 so there's plenty of value in a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian had QT for a better kicker.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3: You should almost never open limp in this situation. The exception to limping on the button is on page 197 in HEPFAP "When the blinds are loose". But 77 is still strong enough to raise even in that situation (that's more for hands like 22 and A6o). Pretty much anything you play when you are the first one in the pot in CO or on the button you should raise if there is any chance of the blinds folding (even as little as 30%). Even when they call, you'll often win with a flop bet if the board comes Axx because your opponents will assume you have the ace.

If you limp, you're giving them a free/discounted chance to beat you (and a hand like 98o would fold in the SB for a raise but often complete). Your hand isn't strong enough to take this kind of competition so go ahead and raise. I pretty much raise any pair, any ace, most kings and any 2 cards 9 and higher when I'm opening on the button. I also raise suited connectors down to around 76s/T8s. You don't need to raise that much, but considering you will have a positional advantage for the hand and will often win preflop it's worth considering. This is a situation that 6-max play will help you with.

On the flop you should definitely 3-bet. Both of your opponents have shown they like their hands and your coldcall is no less scary than a 3-bet on this board. It's unlikely that it would have changed the outcome, but there's no reason to slowplay when your opponents are being aggressive.

Edit: Good point, bet the flop in hand 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

And, the worst hand of the bunch...villain had 86s for a flopped OESD which came in on the turn. This is the hand that likely would have folded to a pre-flop bet (wouldn't have after).

pryor15 · #9 09-08-2005, 01:36 PM

i'll add to what i'm sure is an over-whelming chorus.

hand 3: raise pre-flop. you absolutely cannot open-limp on the button (or the CO, for that matter). then 3-bet the flop. if you still lose the hand, oh well. variance is a bitch.

Bankuri · #10 09-08-2005, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3: Open-limping on the button is awful. I don't want to be overly harsh because I know you're looking for constructive criticism and you know you made a mistake, but it really is pretty much a cardinal sin. Never do this. Post-flop, jam the hell out of every street, starting with the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't nearly harsh enough. Thanks for setting me straight (heh, pun).