can anyone answer - O8 as compared to Stud HiLo

[Andy B]

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One reason for playing tight is that it is not my strongest game.

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Hey, stud/8 is my strongest game, or at least the one where I usually enjoy the largest edge, and I play tight, too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Depending on the texture of the game, those big pairs other than Aces may not be terribly playable anyway. As Buzz indicated, back in the day, high-low stud was played with no qualifier for low, although I don't think the declaration thing was ever used much in casinos. In that game, high pairs were completely unplayable, as the low hands were on a total free-roll. Live ones, and this included some players who were very strong at other games, would play these high pairs and lose all their money, so the game died out. Twenty years or so ago, someone got the bright idea of introducing the Eight-or-better qualifier into high-low stud. The qualifier gives the high hands some chance to scoop when the low hands bust. If the pots are multi-way, chances are that at least one of the low hands will get there, so the high hand's chance for scooping is greatly diminished. Also, if the pots are frequently multi-way, then people are probably playing hands like high straight draws, which are complete garbage, but which have a much better chance to hold up if they get there.

[Andy B]

Well, the qualifying hands are the same. You need an Eight-low or better to win the low side. Your starting hand requirements are very different, though.

In Omaha/8, essentially any A2 is playable except in exceptional circumstances. A3 is frequently playable. 23 is usually not playable. You might play 2345 or something, but if you're aiming low, you basically need A2 or A3.

In stud/8, just having that same A2 isn't anything special. You wouldn't play A29, or even A2K, unless all three cards are of the same suit. On the other hand, essentially any three-card Six is playable. Many three-card Sevens are playable, as long as they have a little something extra. 752 and the like aren't especially attractive unless it's cheap and/or you're the only low hand. If you have an Ace or a decent straight possibility like 754 with Sixes live and Eights and Treys reasonably live, your hand is usually playable. Three-card Eights are usually not playable, although (A8)4 and (87)6 are usually OK. If you are going to play a three-card Eight, it is much better if that Eight is in the hole.

[bodie]

Buzz, as you can see I don't have a lot of tournament experience as I've only played in two and they didn't have rebuys. So I'm sure I would take your advice and get the rebuys and add-ons....it's not that much more to have a better advantage, and get to play longer (hopefully!)

One more question: since you agreed that the value of a hand can change greatly in stud/8 as you gain cards, how does having really tight rules about the starting hand really apply, if you think about it? It seems like there's more chance you'll draw than with a community board.

Hawaiian Gardens sounds like fun, I'm definitely going to go - can't today now because of the rain, can't justify leaving my dogs in the cold for that long.

thanks again

[bodie]

Andy,
thanks for all your advice. The starting hand requirements is interesting to me, since you have to be looking to build the entire hand individually rather than using the community board. It looks like a very fun game and I'm looking forward to playing it live.
So this is your favorite game? Do you find it more slow-moving than O8? Someone at an O8 table was telling me, in regard to stud, that "you can't win any money at that game, the pots don't get as big and it's so slow".

[Andy B]

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One more question: since you agreed that the value of a hand can change greatly in stud/8 as you gain cards, how does having really tight rules about the starting hand really apply, if you think about it? It seems like there's more chance you'll draw than with a community board.

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In Omaha/8, you pay however many bets before the flop to have a shot at looking at three cards. Your hand is defined in large part by the flop. In stud/8, you pay for those cards one at a time, so you'd better start out good if you're going to be calling bets on each street.

[Andy B]

Funny, I find Omaha/8 to be terribly boring. If the game is loose, you basically have to sit around and wait for the nuts, and if it isn't loose, it isn't worth playing (for me anyway).

My favorite game is high-low stud with a declare and no qualifier, which is what I call on those rare occasions that I am in a dealer-choice home game. For casino poker, I favor high-only stud, but I rarely play it anymore, as my local room has trouble getting a game as big as $6/12 going. I found it very profitable, relative to the size of the game, when I was playing it, much more profitable than hold'em. A loose stud/8 game is about as good as it gets. Anyone who thinks you can't make money at that game can't play it.

[hurlyburly]

Thanks, Andy. I'll add in three card straights and see how often they come up. I suppose I'll add the rolled up trips to my starting hand list as well, why not?

I'm really aggressive, and the reason I play so tight is because I like to attack the pots so much. In my tournaments I only see about 15% of fifth streets and do my best to manipulate the pot to keep second-hand draws in for the ride. Even playing this aggressively, I'm still seeing about 50% of my fifth streets to showdown. That's also the reason I steer clear of non-premium low draws.

I agree that this isn't correct poker, but the turbo tournament game format is not very forgiving, so 1-2 bad hands can knock you out fast. I think I'd get chewed up using this strategy in a ring game, so I'll steer clear of those until I read Ray's books on Stud and split poker. I also tend to see a lot of the same folks in these games, so this strat may not work for very long.

[Andy B]

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I'll add in three card straights and see how often they come up.

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Not often enough for my taste. You only want to be in there with 876 and smaller, and 876 isn't always playable. Higher straight draws are death.

[chaos]

As in most high-low games, a good stategy is play low cards that can back into a high. A high hand like a big pair rarely backs into a low. So you would like to start with three low cards that can make a straight, suited low cards so you can make a flush, or an Ace and two low cards where you can make Aces or Aces up for high. By playing these starting hands you will often have a made low and be free rolling for the high half of the pot.

[Buzz]

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One more question: since you agreed that the value of a hand can change greatly in stud/8 as you gain cards, how does having really tight rules about the starting hand really apply, if you think about it? It seems like there's more chance you'll draw than with a community board.

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Bodie - Andy has already insightfully and very clearly answered your (tough) question.

You're starting with three cards as opposed to four, and that makes comparisons tricky. Most Omaha-8 players would want to see the flop with any A-2-3-X hand, regardless of the X or suitedness. A-2-3, in particular, is not needed in seven stud-8; however you do need three good cards.

In Omaha-8 there are fewer groups of three cards (out of four) that are playable, while in seven stud-8 there are more groups of three cards (but out of three) that are playable. It may seem as though you are playing more loosly in seven stud-8, because there are more three card groupings that are playable in Omaha-8.

However, it's a lot easier to get three cards out of four than three cards out of three. Accordingly, you can play more three card groups and not necessarily have looser starting standards in seven stud-8 as compared to the Omaha-8.

After the start, as in Omaha-8, you have to be ready to throw your hand away if your next cards are not favorable. And, as in Omaha-8, much of what you do depends on the actions (and anticipated reactions) of your opponents.

Seven stud-8 is a lot of fun, but if you start out playing it in a tournament, you may be seated at a table where most of your opponents have a lot of seven stud-8 experiencs and/or a lot of tournament experience. You might do better starting in a casino tournament where you know the game better, and thus at least get some brick and mortar casino tournament experience first.

If Omaha-8 is your best game, I'd advise you to play in an Omaha-8 tournament first. Then, once you know the tournament ropes, learning a new game by playing in a tournament seems not a bad way to start.

Just my opinion.

Buzz