Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.

[pointcount]

I fold this PF.

[istewart]

I don't think you should be.

[ewile]

Man, SB played that horribly.

[JKetzer]

This makes me mad at the SB. There was no reason this had to happen. Raise, silly monkey!

[Georgia Peach]

I think the MP1 should have raised the flop. It would have saved me a few bets. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I think y'all are right. I should have called the flop and raised the turn if possible. I gave everyone reason to stay in.

[dkernler]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn instead and it is now wrong to call a gutshot draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this actually true? If we only call on the flop, there are 6.5 BB going in to the turn. If SB bets out again on the turn and even only 2 call, they'd be getting at least 10.5:1 to call if we raise. I'm not sure the turn raise protects anything.

But I struggle with this concept as well, so I could be off.

[ewile]

I'd really like to get a more educated opinion here as to the flop raise vs. the turn raise. I still feel that raising the flop was correct,but I can't really articulate the reasons why. I do think that the raise on the flop saved you money as the other players (who were beating you) responded by playing so passivly.

Anyway, I'd love to get a more definitive opinion on this.

[dkernler]

That's a good point about the raise - it may not drive others out, but it could earn us a free card. (Or cause others to play passively, as you pointed out.)

On an unrelated topic, check out MP2's equity with bottom pair, GSD, and BDFD on the flop. Crazy.

[ QUOTE ]
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

6,374,286 games 8.020 secs 794,798 games/sec

Board: Tc 6s 8h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 26.1534 % [ 00.26 00.00 ] { KsKh }
Hand 2: 17.5373 % [ 00.17 00.00 ] { AhTh }
Hand 3: 24.3184 % [ 00.23 00.01 ] { 7c6c }
Hand 4: 10.4430 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { JcTd }
Hand 5: 10.9519 % [ 00.11 00.00 ] { random }
Hand 6: 10.5960 % [ 00.09 00.02 ] { random }


[/ QUOTE ]

[Shillx]

If you raise the flop, you are doing so for value. If you raise the turn, you are also doing so for value. I have seen some people talk about giving incorrect odds, and what you have to understand is that when you call a bet (not closing the action) and you know that it will get raised behind you, you are effectively calling 2 bets cold. So if you are going to raise the flop 100% of the time in this spot, you are giving everyone 17:2 = 8.5:1 on the flop. So anyone who called the 1st bet with something like 95 is making a mistake though they don't realize it when they call the 1st bet. This is why whenever you decide to call a bet, you have to estimate how often it will get raised behind you. If you are getting 10:1 on a 10:1 shot but think that there is 20% chance of a raise behind you, you should fold.

Brad

[maraden]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to raise the flop, don't I? I do not have exact reads but I'm assuming straight draws aplenty and perhaps I'm outkicked for top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This problem is tough for me too. I don't think you have to raise the flop due to your low pot equity in this large field. Pstove gives the JT less than 24% against 6 random hands. As you said, you are often against better hands so your pot equity will be much less.

I think the turn would be raised so you could make a decision to fold, or raise depending on what happens. If it was checked then bet to protect.