Bankroll for NL Holdem Games

[Steve Chase]

Hi, I try to start to play at PartyPoker 25 NL and 50 NL table games. What kind of bankroll should I have to get started? Will 10 BUY INs be enough ($250, $25 per buy in for 25 NL Holdem)?

I will be focused on NL Holdem games.
Bankroll swings will be much bigger than Limit Holdem games.
I want to make one deposit and hope it will last me for three months. Just assume I am a good player. Bankroll swings are needed for luck factors.

Does anyone published any study on swing numbers for NL Holdem games?

As an individual, what is the most consectitive BUY IN lost you had at Party NL Holdem tables?

[grandgnu]

I'm assuming you mean sit n' go single or multi-table tourneys? Haven't played on party poker, mostly just poker stars.

I believe you'd want to have 20-30 buy-ins for these events if that's all you're going to be playing (again, assuming these are tourney games and not sit down with your cash and play No Limit with your money and not tourney chips)

[jimdmcevoy]

I am no expert, but from my experience it is best to have 10 full buy ins at your current limit. if 1 full buy in is 100 BB (big blinds) that means you nead 1000 BB at your current limit. The way I progress up the limits is if I have 10 full buy ins at my current limit and 2 full buy ins at the limit I want to go up to next, I'll take a shot. If I lose those 2 full buy ins at the higher limit, I'll drop down again. If I don't I keep playing to get 10 full buyins at that higher limit and then another 2 full buyins at the next limit. From personal experience this seems to work the best in terms of little risk climbing the ranks of limits.

One last thing, if you ever drop to 10 full buy ins at the next lowest limit, drop down to that limit.

Eventually you will be jumping up and down between two limits, the lower limit the one you can beat (as in you have positive EV when playing it) and the higher limit the one you cannot (as in you have negative EV in it). When you get to this point you have two choices, stick with the lower limit and play to make money, or, stick to the system at continually taking that shot at the higher limit in order to become a better player.

[pzhon]

If you buy in for the maximum and are a good player, 10 buy-ins may give you a low enough risk of ruin. It depends on your playing style and table selection, though. Sometimes I decide to go after a weak player with a huge stack, and that produces higher variance.

You've undoubtedly heard of the 300 BB recommendation for limit play. That corresponds to winning about 3 BB/100 with a standard deviation of about 15 BB/100, for a bankroll that is 4 times the ratio variance/edge = (std dev)^2/edge. Here are some stats people have posted about NL:

Mosch claimed a win rate of 34 big blinds/100 and standard deviation of 97/100 with a $0.50 big blind.
AAmaz0n claimed a win rate of 15 BB/100 with a SD of 54/100 with a $0.50 big blind.
Guy McSucker claimed a win rate of 12 big blinds/100 with a SD of 60/100 with a $1 big blind.

If you assume these are exactly accurate, then at the analogous safety level of 4 variance/edge, Mosch should have a bankroll of 1107 big blinds, AAmazOn should have 778 big blinds, and Guy McSucker should have 1200 big blinds.

If you are desperate, I believe you can achieve more safety by buying in for less. You will probably sacrifice some EV/hour, but I think a much lower bankroll is needed if you buy in for $5 each time.

[CurryLover]

[ QUOTE ]

I will be focused on NL Holdem games.
Bankroll swings will be much bigger than Limit Holdem games.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true. Limit has bigger swings than NL. This sounds surprising and counter-intuitive, but it is true.

When I first started playing limit I noticed that my swings seemed HUGE compared to my NL and PL games. I posted on this forum (don't know how to place a link so you'll have to seaqrch for the thread) asking why my swings were bigger in limit. The response from just about everyone was that limit, by nature, has bigger swings than big bet poker. The reason is because you are correct to chase many draws that wouldn't be profitable at NL, due to pot odds. This means you often put money into the pot as a big dog, and you will usually lose this money (even though you are playing correctly based on pot odds). But every now and then, you will hit your draw and pull in a huge pot. Hence, the swings are so big. Of course, all the other players are playing the same so it makes the swings gigantic.

The fact that the swings are less at NL means you probably don;t need as big a bankroll as for limit. I've no idea exactly how much you need but if you start with 10 buy-ins like you said you have a decent chance of not getting broke. If you hit a bad run and lose this bankroll then it's not the end of the world since you are playing on the small tables. You can just save up and put some money back in your account.

[ricdaman]

I hit a downswing of 16 buy-ins a few weeks ago. While this was the largest losing streak I've ever hit, it shows the need for a larger bankroll than 10 buy-ins.

I play full-time, so my bankroll needs are larger than yours (since a total loss on your part wouldn't be as devastating to you as it would be to me), but I keep 30 buy-ins in my poker account, and 30 buy-ins in my bank account.

The general rule of thumb posted in the NL forums is 60 buy-ins for someone playing full-time. I would say 1/2 of this is good for someone not playing full-time.

Go for 30 buy-ins.

[jimdmcevoy]

Wow, 30 buyins? So if you put in $60 into an online account, you are saying you should be playing 1c-2c? How much do you have to win to bump yourself up to the 5c-10c?

Please don't misinterpret my questioning as saying you are wrong, I am just suprised.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
I hit a downswing of 16 buy-ins a few weeks ago. ...
The general rule of thumb posted in the NL forums is 60 buy-ins for someone playing full-time.


[/ QUOTE ]
Did you lose 16 buy-ins at Party's NL 25? Is the recommendation of 60 buy-ins (which is larger than many other recommendations) for Party's NL $25? This is the lowest level NL game on Party. You need much less of a bankroll because the players are horrible.

My largest downswing on Party's NL $25 was 4 buy-ins.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming you mean sit n' go single or multi-table tourneys? Haven't played on party poker, mostly just poker stars.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually he means neither. There are 25 and 50 min/max buy in no limit cash games on party and so on.

[dogmeat]

An experienced (winning) NL player will experience smaller variance, not more, than a similarly experienced and winning limit player. This NL player needs a minimum of 25 buy-ins IMHO - and additional buy-ins lead to less pressured play.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]