Slowplay two pairs

[Steve Chase]

Just want to get some feedbacks as if I should slowplay two pairs?

Sometimes I win big pot by slowplaying two pairs, sometimes I got beat bad when people outdrawing me.

What do you think and why you think so?

Thanks

[Dominic]

hit 'em and hit 'em hard.

you should pretty much never slow play 2-pair unless it's heads up and you're playing NL...in Limit, keep value betting!

[pzhon]

There is a big difference between top 2 and bottom 2. If you have bottom 2, and the top card pairs, you have suddenly fallen behind people who just had middle pair or a pair above middle pair. If you have top 2, and the bottom card pairs, you have only fallen behind people with overpairs or bottom pair. It's much worse on the turn. In addition, if you have top 2, and a card below yours comes, it can't have given someone a higher 2-pair. If you have bottom 2, and a lower card comes, someone with TPWK could have jumped ahead of you.

Because you don't need to worry nearly as much about giving people a free card, top 2 is a better candidate for a slow-play than bottom 2. I almost always play bottom 2 aggressively, but I sometimes slow-play with top 2. It is very comfortable to slow-play AK on an AKx rainbow board despite the possible gutshot broadway draws.

Top-and-bottom is between the two.

[Dov]

Why slowplay AK on an AKx board?

What card do you want them to hit?

What do you do on the turn when you c/r and get 3 bet because you let them suck out for free?

Presumably, you raised PF and if they are still in the hand, they will likely have an A, a K, 2 broadway cards, or a PP. (Unless they are pretty bad to begin with)

Assuming that these are their hands, what card do you think will cause them to give you more action than they will now?

If they have an A or a K, they may decide to call you down in case you have a smaller PP like QQ-99.

If they have 2 broadways, they may decide to go for the gutshot.

If they have a PP, they may decide to call you down, no matter what, or they may decide that you have an A, a K, or both and decide to look at a turn card, figuring that you'll pay off if they hit.

In addition, they may be holding a back door flush draw as well.

So what card are you going to give that makes someone a second best hand without giving them a big chance to outdraw you?

Are they really going to fold anyway?

I think that slowplaying here is a big mistake. If I've mistated something here, please let me know.

Dov

[pzhon]

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Why slowplay AK on an AKx board?

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An AKx board is scary for anyone without an ace or king. In my experience, it's a good type of flop for stone-cold bluffing. It is hard to outdraw an overpair. I want to let people catch up, and perhaps bluff at me or value-bet into me.

This is particularly useful in a multi-way pot in late position. If I bet on an AKx flop, it is unlikely that someone will bet into me on the turn. If I check, I may be able to get more money in by raising on the turn.

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What card do you want them to hit?

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If I had my choice, I'd want them to fill up their bottom set. Hitting 2-pair would be nice, too. They don't need to catch anything. They can pick up enough doubt that they call me down with an ace, king, or pocket pair. In a raised pot, you don't have to put much doubt in someone's mind to get calls.

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What do you do on the turn when you c/r and get 3 bet because you let them suck out for free?

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I cap. I also cap the more frequent times that they only thing they have sucked out on me, but haven't. On average, I think it works out ok. How many outs do most hands have against top 2? Not many.

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what card do you think will cause them to give you more action than they will now?
If they have an A or a K, they may decide to call you down in case you have a smaller PP like QQ-99.

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Great. If they have an A or a K, they are drawing dead. I want them to call me down. I think they are more likely to put me on a possible QQ if I check the AKx flop. Maybe they will bet into me, then call down.

They don't need to catch anything. If they do, maybe I will get a couple of extra big bets when they raise and call my 3-bet.

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If they have 2 broadways, they may decide to go for the gutshot.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "deciding to go for the gutshot." If I have given them a free card, what decision do they have? If I bet or raise on the turn, I want players to aim for the gutshot. Maybe they will catch a pair on the river and call then, too.


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If they have a PP, they may decide to call you down, no matter what, or they may decide that you have an A, a K, or both and decide to look at a turn card, figuring that you'll pay off if they hit.

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They have 2 outs if they check behind, or if I checked behind. There are some implied odds, too, as long as they correctly fold. However, if they decide to call me down without improving, they have negative implied odds.

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So what card are you going to give that makes someone a second best hand without giving them a big chance to outdraw you?

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What big chances does any hand have for outdrawing top 2? It is much easier to outdraw bottom two than to outdraw top two.

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Are they really going to fold anyway?

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Don't people usually drop like flies when the preflop raiser bets out on an AKx flop?

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I think that slowplaying here is a big mistake. If I've mistated something here, please let me know.

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The 2-out draws, gutshots, and backdoor flush draws are always arguments against slowplaying. There is always some danger when you slow-play. I don't think it is particularly dangerous to slow-play top 2. It can greatly increase the action you get in that hand, and that you sometimes slow-play protects you when you have a weak hand.

[Dov]

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If I had my choice, I'd want them to fill up their bottom set.

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If they fill up, then you lose as you lose to any set. Now you are drawing to a 4 outer... Unless their bottom pair is a K.

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An AKx board is scary for anyone without an ace or king. In my experience, it's a good type of flop for stone-cold bluffing. It is hard to outdraw an overpair. I want to let people catch up, and perhaps bluff at me or value-bet into me.

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It is NOT hard to outdraw an overpair in a multiway pot. Slowplaying in a multiway pot is always a mistake because you will lose bets and someone will find something to play with you, especially if the pot was raised PF. (This means that the pot will be large. People do not fold easily in large pots.)

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They can pick up enough doubt that they call me down with an ace, king, or pocket pair. In a raised pot, you don't have to put much doubt in someone's mind to get calls.

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That is a good reason NOT to slow play. They will have doubts anyway and be reluctant to give up the pot just because it is large and you raised PF.

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I also cap the more frequent times that they only thing they have sucked out on me, but haven't. On average, I think it works out ok. How many outs do most hands have against top 2?

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In this case, the most likely suckout is going to be a set or a straight. Even if they catch 2 pair, they may be afraid of other board possibilities. Ex: KT catches a T on the turn. He may think he sucked out but is afraid that someone caught a straight.

Most of the time they think they sucked out on you, they did. Do you think that don't think you might have AK?

I still maintain that it is better to bet-reraise, than check-raise with this hand.

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On average, I think it works out ok. How many outs do most hands have against top 2? Not many.

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This is true if you are HU or 3 handed. But if you slowplayed, you may be 5 or 6 handed. Now there are a lot of cards that can ruin your hand. Collectively, they will beat you much more often in this large pot. That is a mistake.

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Great. If they have an A or a K, they are drawing dead. I want them to call me down.

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They can't call you down if you don't bet.

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I think they are more likely to put me on a possible QQ if I check the AKx flop.

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Why is this true? Do you do this? Why couldn't you have a hand like AA or KK or AK and be slowplaying it? Most people would bet QQ here and fold if they don't improve the turn and get more than 1 caller, or fold to a raise and a call behind them.

Why would you check QQ on this board unless you are going to fold if someone bets?

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They don't need to catch anything. If they do, maybe I will get a couple of extra big bets when they raise and call my 3-bet.

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If they don't need to catch anything to give yo action, then why are you slowplaying this?

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If they have 2 broadways, they may decide to go for the gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure what you mean by "deciding to go for the gutshot." If I have given them a free card, what decision do they have? If I bet or raise on the turn, I want players to aim for the gutshot.

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Exactly, if you slowplay, there is no chance for them to make a mistake and go for the gutshot. If you bet, they may choose to 'go for it' anyway.

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They have 2 outs if they check behind, or if I checked behind. There are some implied odds, too, as long as they correctly fold. However, if they decide to call me down without improving, they have negative implied odds.

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That's why you don't want to slowplay this. Having 2 outs, they are not likely to catch a card that wil now make them a second best hand. They already have a second best hand.

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What big chances does any hand have for outdrawing top 2? It is much easier to outdraw bottom two than to outdraw top two.

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What does this have to do with anything? I'm not advocating slowplaying either one of these. For the record, I don't like slowplaying sets either in a raised multiway pot. These hands just aren't as strong as people like to believe.

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Don't people usually drop like flies when the preflop raiser bets out on an AKx flop?

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No, not necessarily. They call down with Axs, Ax, Kxs, Kx, any PP, any set, 2 pair, OESD, Backdoor Flush Draw, Bottom Pair, and their lucky hand, whatever that may be. They may also think they can outplay you later by making you think that THEY have AK. Oh yeah, they may have AK.

If you're playing in a 2+2 game, they could have anything, even a granny mae!

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The 2-out draws, gutshots, and backdoor flush draws are always arguments against slowplaying. There is always some danger when you slow-play.

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That's why you need a strong hand to do it with. Top two pair isn't strong enough in a raised multiway pot, IMO.

Dov

[pzhon]

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If I had my choice, I'd want them to fill up their bottom set.

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If they fill up, then you lose as you lose to any set. Now you are drawing to a 4 outer... Unless their bottom pair is a K.

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You are confused. I have AK. The board is AK5. My opponent has bottom set, 55. For bottom set to fill up on the turn means that an ace or king comes. Let's say an ace. That gives me aces full of kings, while my opponent has fives full of aces and only one out.

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An AKx board is scary for anyone without an ace or king. In my experience, it's a good type of flop for stone-cold bluffing. It is hard to outdraw an overpair. I want to let people catch up, and perhaps bluff at me or value-bet into me.

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It is NOT hard to outdraw an overpair in a multiway pot.

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This is wrong. If I have AQ on an AK5 board, and you have 98, there is no card you can catch that puts you ahead of me. If you have 65, you have only 5 outs against AQ, and 2 outs against AK. If you have 88, you have 2 outs against either. That is what I meant about it being hard to outdraw an overpair.

If I bet, on an AKx flop, people are not going to give me credit for AK, but they will imagine AJ or KQ and that is usually bad enough. They will correctly fold, and not give me any more chips. Even if they call, they are unlikely to bluff or value bet into me on the turn.

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Slowplaying in a multiway pot is always a mistake because you will lose bets and someone will find something to play with you, especially if the pot was raised PF.

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Ok, thank you for clarifying that you think it is always wrong to slowplay in a multiway pot. I vehemently disagree. So does HPFAP.

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I also cap the more frequent times that they only thing they have sucked out on me, but haven't. On average, I think it works out ok. How many outs do most hands have against top 2?

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In this case, the most likely suckout is going to be a set or a straight.

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That's way too paranoid. Let's suppose the turn is a 9. Only 3 possible hands hit a set. 21 just made 2-pair. Even if a broadway card comes, 2-pair is more likely than straights and sets put together.

It doesn't look like you are taking what I am saying seriously. You aren't even taking the time to parse what I am saying correctly, so why should I say anything? You have convinced yourself that it is wrong to slowplay in a multiway pot, period. This discussion is a waste of my time.

[stone-killer]

I would probably play it fast. Only with the most raggedy flop, or maybe an absolute killer (AK and the flop comes down A-K-7, perhaps?) flop would I even consider this, and then I would be afraid to try it against good players.

Why lose a good pot by slow-playing a hand that doesn't merit it? Ram and Jam, baby!

[stone-killer]

Dar Dar Dar...

I guess this has already been discussed, ad nauseum....

Next time I will read before replying.

[bernie]

It kind of depends on the board, size of the pot, if there's a bet into you and # of players involved, ec..doesn't it?

Absence of any of the above info = im not slowplaying it.

b