Screw collusion...THIS is the problem online....

[NoChance]

It's not an analogy but I guess it could be close. It's basically someone taking the time to modify something so that it makes the game easier to play. The screen is less cluttered. The colors are easier on my eyes. The screen is not so bright. It is easier to see how many people are still in the hand when multi-tabling.

I was just wondering if you thought this was also unfair.

[GuruCane]

Actually it is an analogy and doesn't depict the "unfair advantage" that folks are talking about. I don't think, however, that it is the worst analogy that I have ever heard. Ability to change graphics is not akin to the ability to sort data b/c of possession of a special program.

Is the playing field level? Only from a certain point of view. It is if you argue that everyone has access to the same info and programs and can put in enough effort. It is not if you want to argue that these items are somehow secret (I don't like this argument). Ultimately, however, the playing field is never level in poker because of intellect. It is clearly an unlevel playing field if I were to play HE against David Sklansky. However, you can't argue that this is "unfair" (ie unlevel does not equal unfair). Can't fault a guy for being smarter. At the end of the day, everyone has access to all of the tools utilized by the pro online players so it is "fair". But the playing field would not be level whether those tools were utilized by all or not.

Anyone think that my Mark McGwire analogy sucked?

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not an analogy but I guess it could be close. It's basically someone taking the time to modify something so that it makes the game easier to play. The screen is less cluttered. The colors are easier on my eyes. The screen is not so bright. It is easier to see how many people are still in the hand when multi-tabling.

I was just wondering if you thought this was also unfair.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It doesn't affect how you play a hand against someone. I wouldnt know how to do all that and really dont care to ever know but I am not seeing anywhere close to the same problem.

[PoorLawyer]

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Anyone think that my Mark McGwire analogy sucked?

[/ QUOTE ]

Much better than the felt color one.

While sklansky is better at the game I would still consider it an unfair advantage if either one of you were using PT against the other without them knowing.

[esknights]

I agree that it is not a simple issue. A simple way for a site to avoid people using statistics is to take away hand histories. Another choice would be to eliminate data-mining. I too like PT. However, I see in the future it being in the best interest of the sites to eliminate stat trackers. Not that I support the sites interests, but I feel that will keep losing players around just a bit longer.

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that it is not a simple issue. A simple way for a site to avoid people using statistics is to take away hand histories. Another choice would be to eliminate data-mining. I too like PT. However, I see in the future it being in the best interest of the sites to eliminate stat trackers. Not that I support the sites interests, but I feel that will keep losing players around just a bit longer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

The sites that don't have a problem allowing PT type of software should make this software available within the initial download free of charge for all players to use at their own discretion. That's the only way to justify others using it and keeping the playing field as even as possible for all the players.

If they silently allow a minority to have an unfair advantage over the majority, the sites become complacent partners in this activity.

The only way now for players who don't use PT to have a level playing field is to play on sites that PT doesn't support. It's silly for non-users of PT to have to play other non PT sites just to keep an even playing field.

This is a problem the PT sites need to address.

[pudley4]

PT and PlayerView are not. End of discussion.

This thread is completely worthless.

[sasubpar]

Sorry this is so long, but I really feel that the original poster and the people arguing along his line of reasoning are incorrect, and I want to point out where and why.

[ QUOTE ]
How is the information getting on to the Party screen? I'm sure "none" of party's code was used/modified to make that happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. Information is processed by PokerTracker, then that processed data is overlayed onto the poker table by a separate application. It does not use the poker software in any real way.

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All in all, it's fairly ammusing watching you people defend something that you could obviously not make a dime without.

So many "Internet Pro's"

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't even an argument, it's just an insult. What's worse, it has no factual basis.

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no it isnt. If "everyone else" was using it then I don't think it is such a big deal. The fact is though that only a very small fraction of people know it even exists/know that people are using their past play against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not see a difference between using someone's past play against them via the use of numerical statistics and doing it via note-taking and memory. Either way, I am using someone's past play against them without their knowledge, and by your logic, I am being unfair.

Secondly, not knowing that it exists has no bearing on the discussion. It is freely available to everyone with an internet connection. It is talked about at just about every poker website and forum, and it is simple to use. How does other players' knowledge factor into the equation? You have expressed disdain for the comparison of PT and books in this thread, but that comparison is used because it successfully refutes this exact argument. Very few people know that the math has been done and that there is generally a "correct" way to play poker. This information is contained in books that only some people know about and even fewer people read. Applying your line of reasoning, reading poker books is not fair.

[ QUOTE ]
So many narrow minds, but of course, nobody expected less.

It's not about technology, it's not about memory, it's not about multi-tabling.

It IS about a level playing field.

If this is so "fair", why is it not biult in to the poker software?

Name ONE online poker site that *provides* this information as part of their program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your contention that everyone in favor of such software is "narrow-minded" is merely another ad hom that lacks any basis in reality.

Your argument about a "level playing field" is appealing to one's sense of justice and fairness, but makes little sense. The fundamental nature of the game provides a level playing field, and this fact is not changed at all by third party software. There are still fifty-two cards in the deck, there are still only four aces, and you still don't know what anyone else holds. The playing field is by definition level. Your argument is akin to a golfer complaining that the playing field is not level because his opponent is using brand new Nike clubs while he chooses to use equipment from the 1930s.

Your final argument is fallacious, you are begging the question. Just because poker software does not integrate these features into their software does not make third party software doing just that "unfair." As I have argued above, the playing field provided by the site is inherently fair, using statistical software is merely one way to play (fairly) on that level field.

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But, I would still have a problem with the information being 'overlayed' onto the poker window, under the cooresponding name.

It is not a crime to have the information, but to modify or alter the poker window in ANY way shape or form is a problem for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is overlaying the information unfair in and of itself? If you acknowledge that having the information is fair, how can making that information easier to digest be unfair?

[ QUOTE ]
It is completely different to learn how to play a game through books and discussion than it is to take information that would not be usable the way pokertracker makes it and to buy a program to filter thousands of hands and give you real-time information on your opponents.

I said this in another thread a couple weeks ago, but what do you think the reaction of all the fishies would be if party put out a mass email telling them that people are using this program against them without their knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, the information provided by PokerTracker is not real-time information. It is 100% historical and gives no prediction or information about either (a) Your opponent's hands or (b) how they are playing their current hand. Information about the current hand is not imported or displayed until after it is over. Secondly, merely having these statistics does nothing to give you an advantage or improve your play. You need to be good at several other things, among them: understanding the statistics, watching your opponent's overall style of play, knowing how often your opponent tries to be deceptive with her play, etc.

Finally, I wouldn't give two shits if Party told everyone about PokerTracker. It does not make you a better player, all it does is make you a more informed player. I would relish having 50k people having PT and still not knowing what they were doing.

[ QUOTE ]
it has nothing to do with making the fish's game better. It has to do with you knowing how bad they are and their tendancies when they don't know yours. If they knew yours and ignored it, then so be it.
Yes, the info can be used by anyone. But do they know that info even exists on their hard drive? If they did, do they know that PT exists? If they did, should they be forced to shell out for it just to keep pace? (you do have to pay for the software right?) If they got it and saw how bad their play is, would they keep playing? stop playing? learn how not to play fishy anymore?
The ones that know about it and keep playing deserve to be eaten alive, but as to everyone else they are put at an unknowing and unfair disadvantage that goes beyone their poor play.

[/ QUOTE ]

To begin, I still don't understand how this is any different than physical or mental note-taking. You are processing data about how your opponents play. The accuracy of that data depends on multiple factors, none of which are provided by either PT or your Pen and Paper.

Moreover, my opponents not knowing my tendencies is not my fault. They can know my tendencies without PokerTracker and PlayerView, and if they don't, it's not something THAT GOES BEYOND their "bad play," it is an INHERENT QUALITY OF their "bad play."

Why does it matter if all of my opponents know about PT and PV? Should I only take advantage of the things my opponents also know about? If they don't understand what a check-raise is, should I enlighten them before I do it? Of course not. You will argue that this example is not a good analogy, but it most certainly is. I cannot will that my opponents know everything they can do to make their game better. I would have zero incentive to will such a thing even if I could.

Finally, you continue to assume (or at least imply) that PokerTracker makes someone using it a better poker player ("...just to keep pace.") I will repeat again for emphasis that PokerTracker does nothing to make you a better player. Using computer analysis and motion sensors to analyze your golf swing does not make you a better golfer. Going to the weightroom does not make you a better football player. WHAT YOU DO with these tools makes you better. These tools are not always used by all people in these games, and that fact does not make any of these tools "unfair."

[ QUOTE ]
A poker book gives you information on the macro level (what hands you should play, when in general to raise/fold, figuring out odds, etc.). That is entirely different from a program that tells you on a micro level about how an individual person usually plays a hand, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are confused about the levels of information given by the book and the software, and this is the reason you can't understand the comparison between the two. The book gives you macro-level information about THE GAME OF POKER, the software gives you macro-level information ABOUT THE PLAYERS. They BOTH give you macro-level information. Micro-level information about the player would involve specific information about what they are doing right now and why. PokerTracker cannot give you this information, that would be cheating. Information about what someone "usually" does can not only be gleaned using "traditional" poker skills, but it is positive information, not normative. That is, it does not tell you what to do or what the correct play is, it just gives you facts. The fact that a player "usually" raises with TPTK does not mean she will not raise with an OESD or a pair of sevens with an ace kicker. In this sense, PT only gives you framework information.

[jon_keck]

[ QUOTE ]
Obvious responses.

Glad I play Omaha. It's like having Mozilla when all the idiot virus writers are targeting IE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because tracking players tendencies and infecting someone's computer with harmful code are so much alike.

Take a chill pill, plz.

[crownjules]

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do not see how the comparison to reading a poker book is relevant even though that is one of the most common replies whenever use of PT is questioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Books and PT are quite relevant to each other. Neither are required to play the game, but both will improve it if used correctly. Both provide information, but of different types. Both require the player to go out and research their existance in order to utilize them, no one just 'knows' they are there (unless they're omniscient, in which case they wouldn't need them anyway). Both require the player to make an expenditure.

[ QUOTE ]
...that most everyone doesn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying because they just don't want to buy it or because they don't know it is there? Either way, it doesn't matter. Knowing it exists and not wanting to buy it is a flat out refusal to improve your game and therefore you deserve not to win (you've said the same). Ignorance is a claim for the lazy and unmotivated, who also deserve to lose. I hated the fact I was losing so I put in some effort to get better. I found 2+2. I found books. I found PT. I applied the concepts and knowledge I learned from all the above to my game. I am now a winning player. Any other player who hates losing can follow the same exact steps and, provided their intelligent enough to utilize the tools correctly and apply them to their game, can also win. PT is not exclusive to select individuals, which would make it an unfair advantage. ANYONE can buy it.

Likening it to steriods is not a correct analogy as PT is not a performance enhancer. It does not enhance your thinking ability like steroids (or similar boosters) enhance your physical ability. As was stated by another poster, it simply condenses raw data (jumbles of hand histories that would be very hard to read through in their entirety) into useable information (detailed stats on players' playing tendencies based on that raw data) that you could also obtain through hand notes and long math.

Your arguement is not about the use of PT but the useage of modern day technology to improve existing processes. You have no problem with a player who takes notes by hand and compiles it himself, but the same exact process done out by PT (technology) is unfair and you cry foul.