Hand protection in NL Holdem

Steve Chase · #1 11-10-2004, 05:03 PM

Following is a hand posted by a fellow 2+2er which I face a lot.

My question: What is a good way to test if the caller had the flush?
If I continue to bet big assuming he has no flush I may lose a lot chips when he indeed made the flush.
If I don't bet or bet small that someone who does not have the flush may bluff me big reprsenting he/she had the flush.

I don't know how to best play such a hand when 3rd flush card indeeds showed up on the board.

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to t100, MP2 calls t100, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t85, BB folds.

Flop: (t330) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t200, MP2 calls t200, SB folds.

Turn: (t730) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t350, MP2 calls t350.

River: (t1430) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t500, MP2 raises to t1000, Hero calls t500.

Final Pot: t3430

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ricdaman · #2 11-10-2004, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Following is a hand posted by a fellow 2+2er which I face a lot.

My question: What is a good way to test if the caller had the flush?
If I continue to bet big assuming he has no flush I may lose a lot chips when he indeed made the flush.
If I don't bet or bet small that someone who does not have the flush may bluff me big reprsenting he/she had the flush.

I don't know how to best play such a hand when 3rd flush card indeeds showed up on the board.

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to t100, MP2 calls t100, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t85, BB folds.

Flop: (t330) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t200, MP2 calls t200, SB folds.

Turn: (t730) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t350, MP2 calls t350.

River: (t1430) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t500, MP2 raises to t1000, Hero calls t500.

Final Pot: t3430

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[/ QUOTE ]

What was the level this tourney is at? What are the pot sizes of the other players, and our Hero?

On the flop, bet enough to screw up a chaser's pot ods. You simply can not slowplay this on the flop.

The Flop: Bet more on the flop... say, t250 or t300. You want him calling with AJ or an overpair, not two hearts or a str8 draw.

The Turn: Once the 3rd heart (and also possible str8 card) comes on the turn, what I like to do is bet big (very close to the pot). In this case, t600 - t730.

Here's why: If I bet big on the flop, and got 1 caller, then chances are he doesn't have the flush or str8 unless he's an idiot. You would have to know your opponent to know this.

Now, if he's got the flush (or str8), he'll more than likely raise you here. If he just calls, you probably have him beat to his more than likely AJ, over pair, or lower set. He could be slowplaying his flush, but unlikely.

Flushes should not scare you that much. He is one of only 3 people in the pot on the flop. I see a lot of people slow way down when a flush card comes. You shouldn't. When there are that few people in the pot, and you have made a significant bet on the flop, the ods of him having the flush are low.

The river: Here, you have to stick with your assumptions from the turn. If you see the river, that more than likely means he called your bet on the turn. Here, the 4 did not help him. You know that. Go ahead and bet again. I would bet about t1000.

The problem with the Hero in this example is that he showed weakness on the flop and turn. If I am the Villian (MP2), and I hold 99, and I see a JT6 flop, I think there's a good chance it didn't help our Hero (putting him on say AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ, or possibly it did help with AJ, KJ, AT, or something). Now I see Hero bet t200 into a t330 pot. Hmmm... weak bet. Could Hero have AK? I call. Hero bets t350 into a t730 pot. Now this is really showing weakness. I'm really thinking I have the best hand. On the river Hero bets t500 into a t1430 pot. That's it? t500? Now I'm really putting Hero on AK or AQ. I raise the river thinking I have the best hand. Get it?

You can't be weak here. You have to be aggressive.

All of this is IMO of course. I'm not an expert on tourney play, and again, most of this depends upon chip stacks, stage, position, etc which information I don't have right now.

AEKDBet · #3 11-11-2004, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The Turn: Once the 3rd heart (and also possible str8 card) comes on the turn, what I like to do is bet big (very close to the pot). In this case, t600 - t730.

Here's why: If I bet big on the flop, and got 1 caller, then chances are he doesn't have the flush or str8 unless he's an idiot. You would have to know your opponent to know this.

Now, if he's got the flush (or str8), he'll more than likely raise you here. If he just calls, you probably have him beat to his more than likely AJ, over pair, or lower set. He could be slowplaying his flush, but unlikely.

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I don't agree with this. In the example posted the caller/chaser has position, so if he indeed does have the (nut) flush on 4th street he is likely to call the hero for two reasons.

1) He is hoping that you will bet into him again on the river, granted the board doesn't pair he is holding a made hand.
2) He is hoping that if you check on the river, he can offer you a weak lead or some bet that you feel like you have to call, based on your check and the pot size -- extracting more chips from you.

All this depends on the table and the opponents. At an aggressive table the flush would raise here and almost certainly get a call. At a tight table, maybe not. Anywhere inbetween he would extract, not wanting to scare off an out of position player betting into his flush.

To answer the poster's question... you bet large (pot-sized) with your hand. Even if he does have the flush you have 10 outs on the river. If you get raised here that's another matter.

ricdaman · #4 11-12-2004, 01:16 AM

Funny thing... this JUST happend to me!!!

See my post here, and what I did.

Specifically, I usually play at loose agressive tables, so I'm very used to people raising flushes on the turn (it's like clockwork). Sorry I didn't make this clear. It would show that my advice is only good at a loose aggressive table.