Vulnerable Two-Pair on Flop and Turn

Party Poker 8 handed $.5-$1 limit HE
Just sat down, no reads - but these guys are your typical loose passive low limit party players.

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
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MP1 limps, I'm in MP2 and I limp, and CO and Button limp, SB folds.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>

BB bets, MP1 calls, I raise to knock out any draws the CO or Button might have.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>


Hand still vulnerable, BB and MP1 both check, I bet (should I wait for river to wait for non-scare card, THEN bet?) CO and Button both fold, BB raises, MP1 folds, and I call the raise.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

BB bets, I call.

Final Pot:

I'm just wondering how to play a strong hand on the flop or turn, but a very vulnerable one. What is normally the best approach to such situations and should I have called the turn check raise from MP1? If there was only two to the club draw on the flop what would be the best approach?

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Possibly calling the flop and raising a non club turn may be better here -- hopefully someone better than me will be along shortly to advise...

You're getting 10.5-1 after the turn c/r so should call with your 4 boat outs alone.

Have to call river too -- expect to lose but I think you're 2pr are good much more than is needed to make it a profitable call.

but if I call the flop, I'm giving the CO and Button too much of a chance to draw against me.

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but if I call the flop, I'm giving the CO and Button too much of a chance to draw against me.

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Yes, I know what you mean.

I was wondering if waiting for the turn in this situation, when we have a bigger equity edge, had any merit and was hoping some of the more knowledgable posters would comment.

[NobodysFreak]

I think we can call down here.

I don't really like the flop raise for a couple of reasons

1) Its such a scary board I want to see what the turn brings. I really want to see how the remainder of the field reacts. To me there is not a lot of risk in giving a free card.
2) Anyone that folds didn't really have a chance in the first place so you might as well keep them donating dead money to the pot.

If its checked to you on the turn I would open with a bet and stop any flush draw from getting a free card.

You've definitely have a strong hand but there are a lot of things that can go wrong in this position. You are pretty much trapped until the end.

You can't really protect your hand against any drawing flush hand.
I'm just calling it down.

[ QUOTE ]
but if I call the flop, I'm giving the CO and Button too much of a chance to draw against me.

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What draw would you be scared of, other than the flush? With this board you are very likely ahead of your opponents best draws.

I just don't think you are vunerable to a draw other than a flush. If your opponents are drawing to flush then your very likely not getting them to fold

[Yerma]

It's a gamble but I usually just call this flop too. If they're going to call with the 5-high flush draw for one bet, but not for two, well...
First, they have to have the small club in their hand. Second, they have to be willing to call a single flop bet with it, but not cold-call a raise. Third, that weak flush draw has to be the biggest one at the table (if someone has the dry Ace, they're not folding and you now welcome the dead money from the weaker draws). Fourth, noone can have flopped the flush. The combination is pretty unlikely, so I wait for a non-club turn to get aggressive.