pocket 10s on the BB

All people on this board saying they 3 bet for value, because TT is a good hand and it's not because of it's set making qualities - TAKE MY CHALLENGE.

KWAZZIE's TT RERAISE CHALLENGE.

Go to your Poker Tracker.
Do a simple filter.

Filter for hands where 5 or more saw the flop.
Go to your TT hands.
Chances are it's in the negative. If it isn't. Now filter out manually all the hands where you didn't make a set or a full house.

Now tell me that TT in a 5 way pot isn't played for set value.

The probability of a rainbow flop with no high cards is about 15%(hopefully didn't make a mistake here). Looks good enough to me, since even if the flop shows a 2-flush,there is no guarantee someone has hit a flush draw. So i'm not scared enough of the flush to not 3-bet.
With 5 opponents i'm pretty sure not all of them will have 2 overcards. I guess at least 2 of them will have a lower pocket pair or lower suited connectors or maybe even nothing good at all. Even against 2 overcards you are the favorite, not much, but you are. So the only thing you really have to fear preflop is a higher pair. But someone with a higher pair would almost always have raised or reraised, and i have seen a lot of callers, but only one raiser so far. The raiser could also have many other hands like AK,AQ,AJ,KQ,... If he is loose/aggressive he could also have something less than that. So i'm pretty sure you have a pot equity edge here.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
All people on this board saying they 3 bet for value, because TT is a good hand and it's not because of it's set making qualities - TAKE MY CHALLENGE.

KWAZZIE's TT RERAISE CHALLENGE.

Go to your Poker Tracker.
Do a simple filter.

Filter for hands where 5 or more saw the flop.
Go to your TT hands.
Chances are it's in the negative. If it isn't. Now filter out manually all the hands where you didn't make a set or a full house.

Now tell me that TT in a 5 way pot isn't played for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't play preflop based on fear of postflop. i'll deal with that when it comes. i'm 3-betting because i think i have the best hand right now. i 3-bet AA-JJ for the same reasons even though on the flop someone (like TT) could hit their 2 outer or 2 pair or a straight or a flush. sure they could suckout on me, but i'm not giving A5o a cheap look at the flop simply because he'll get an overcard a percentage of the time.

[TripleH68]

My gut is telling me to call preflop. And I am pretty sure that is how I would play it at most tables.

That said we are way ahead plenty of limping hands like smaller pps, suited aces, suited connectors.

If CO raises light and is a flop auto-bettor it would be nice to use him on the flop. Thinking players are often scared of a check-raise from the BB who could hold anything when rags flop. Now if the players trapped between hero and CO are very aggressive - perhaps this changes things.

Just thinking out loud as there does not seem to be a default play here.

[DMBFan23]

doesn't my set value give me good value on my reraise though, considering I'll have the highest set more often than like 22, and I can also win unimproved very often?

[DMBFan23]

I might just smoothcall preflop, TT is the borderline one for me. I call 99 pretty much always and reraise JJ pretty much always, so TT I check the ambient temperature and the prevailing winds and I 3 bet if I don't have the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]...not really, I guess I don't have a guideline.

postflop is beautiful, flop bet is necessary cause the pot is so big you'd call a bet anyways so you should bet to get KJ, QJ, etc to fold.

[Avatar of Wine]

2 key points here:

1 - Why are we assuming that none of the limpers won't fold to 2 more? Many of those contemplating calling seem to think we're "bloating the pot" for the limped hands, which presumably contain overcards (another assertion that may or may not be true) - even at micro, there is a non-zero chance of folding one or more of the villains, which would be a coup.

2 - Even in the supposed worst-case scenario, 5 ways for 3 bets, is it impossible to think that our equity is greater than 20%? Past that, in the 12.5% chance we spike a set, won't we still cover our edge for the preflop 3-bet?

Just for reference, here's a 2dimes of what seems like a possible range (and ignores the very real possibility that low suited connectors or other jank is following along), just so we can see how we might be over 20% even with overcards out there:


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1300645

Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ts Th 204983 24.10 643253 75.62 2432 0.29 0.242
As Kd 196062 23.05 647998 76.18 6608 0.78 0.234
Ks Js 130398 15.33 713662 83.89 6608 0.78 0.156
Qd 9d 162331 19.08 685905 80.63 2432 0.29 0.191
7d 7h 150286 17.67 697950 82.05 2432 0.29 0.177

[DMBFan23]

good points, and they definitely support re-raising. I don't think either PF option is horrible, I think I slightly prefer re-raising but as I mentioned I mix it up.

TT double check....

I took another look at all of the TT hands I've seen or my opponents have seen. I was real interested in seeing how many times the Unimproved pair holds up.

Total - Could be against any number of opponents
Win Percentage - 1674 Flops Seen
One Pair --------> 30.97%
Two Pair --------> 39.41%
Flush --------> 54.55%
Three Of A Kind --------> 76.99%
Straight --------> 81.08%
Full House --------> 82.05%
Four Of A Kind --------> 100.00%
Straight Flush --------> 100.00%


Sample size is small but against 4 opponents
Win Percentage - 469 Flops Seen
One Pair --------> 26.11%
Two Pair --------> 35.29%
Straight --------> 69.23%
Flush --------> 71.43%
Three Of A Kind --------> 78.08%
Full House --------> 85.71%
Four Of A Kind --------> 100.00%