flopped set with deep stacks

[M.B.E.]

Why push the flop exactly?

In my view there was very little chance I could force out the original preflop raiser ("Villain") and get it heads-up against the all-in. I really do not think that Villain thought to himself "okay, I am going to call this huge bet of 2800 chips and then I can fold if the player behind me raises 5000 more".

When BB made that all-in bet, 2800 into a pot of less than 800, you would expect Villain to either fold or push. When Villain calls, it indicates quite a lot of strength: a made flush, a set, or a straight (i.e. A2, although I'd actually expect him to push with a flopped straight rather than call).

Generally, on that flop, if Villain wants to play the hand because he thinks he is beating the all-in, then unless Villain has a monster he ought to raise to ensure that I fold if I have a big heart (or a straight-flush draw).

The exception to that is if Villain has the singleton ace of hearts with no pair (e.g. A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]), then it makes sense for him to just call.

As I said before, if Villain has QQ or JJ, with or without a heart, I'd have expected him to push the flop, not call. If he has TT/99/88/77, I'd expect him to fold the flop, especially without a heart, but possibly push. So when Villain calls, I can't quite rule out that sort of pocket pair, but it becomes pretty unlikely.

If for some reason Villain did just call with JJ or TT and I now push, if he is holding a heart he is going to call. If he has JJ or TT with no heart he will fold, but that isn't much of an advantage for me as he'd only have two outs against me.

[Degen]

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I really do not think that Villain thought to himself "okay, I am going to call this huge bet of 2800 chips and then I can fold if the player behind me raises 5000 more".



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Its early tourney. I think you are giving this guy far too much credit for having thought this through.

I vote push flop.


Now say you did not push flop, why on earth would you push the turn? Its a dry side pot, is there something I am missing here?

[davekngs]

check behind. I think hes infront so your now trying to draw to a boat and push the river into his flush IMO

Interesting hand ... BB push could mean many things but it almost certainly means he didn't flop the flush and given his preflop reraise it means you're way ahead of him. The most reasonable explanation for the other villian's call is that he holds the Ah - and given his preflop raise and lack of reraise when BB re-opened the betting that narrows him down to AJ+h, AhK, maybe AhQ. This is where it gets interesting for me - his call given the pot and stack sizes almost certainly means he's prepared to call your push. If I think his preflop action includes AQo then I push as I'm a significant favorite over this range when I'm called as expected. If I exclude AQo from his range then the push isn't as clear to me and I'm inclined to just call and go to the felt w/ any non-heart turn. If a heart hits the turn I'll call a bet that's priced right otherwise I'm done - as it played out I check behind.

Posters Caveat: I did the math quickly but certainly more than the alloted 30 seconds - in the heat of battle I push the flop.

[M.B.E.]

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If I think his preflop action includes AQo then I push as I'm a significant favorite over this range when I'm called as expected. If I exclude AQo from his range then the push isn't as clear to me and I'm inclined to just call and go to the felt w/ any non-heart turn.

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I don't really understand that. His range of hands with which he could have raised preflop certainly includes AQo -- and a whole lot more besides. With a stack at 300x the big blind, players can be much more open in their game, so based on the preflop action, Villain's range is quite wide.

It's the flop action that narrows his range substantially. As I said upthread, his just calling shows a lot of strength, and could very well mean he flopped a flush or a set (which would be bigger than mine).

To be honest, before I posted this hand, I figured that the forum would tell me I should have folded on the flop because of the likelihood that Villain has a made flush or a bigger set. I don't think folding would be correct there, because there are some other holdings Villain could have, but I do think my flop decision is close between calling and folding. I still don't agree with those who say push the flop.

[M.B.E.]

When the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] came on the turn and Villain checked, I pushed.

My reasoning at the time was that if Villain had flopped a medium flush or a bigger set than mine, he would now probably fold to my push. What I didn't fully consider is the chance that the all-in player was holding a heart. If I am successful in forcing Villain out of the hand with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (for example), it might be of no benefit to me if the all-in player has even a deuce of hearts. Of course if I get Villain to fold 44 or 55, that is a benefit to me regardless of the all-in player's cards.

Anyway, what I should have done was check behind on the turn. That clearly would have been a better play.

Villain called my turn push with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The all-in player, bizarrely, had AQo without a heart; I don't know what possessed him to push on that flop.

The board unfortunately did not pair on the river (actually a fifth heart came down), so I was out of the tournament.

[tshak]

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Villain called my turn push with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].


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Does anyone think Villain overplayed their 2nd nut flush on a 4-flush & str8-flush board? Or was the push a give away of MBE's weakness? What do you think about Villain's flop line? Calling to let boat draws and A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in seems risky with Villian's holding.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone think Villain overplayed their 2nd nut flush on a 4-flush & str8-flush board? Or was the push a give away of MBE's weakness? What do you think about Villain's flop line? Calling to let boat draws and A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in seems risky with Villian's holding.

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I think Villain's flop play was fine. He has no particular reason to think I am holding the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (or a flopped set or two pair). From Villain's perspective, chance are that I am drawing almost dead; he'd love for me to come along with something like 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. So I think it's fine for Villain to call the flop with the king-high flush (although raising there would be only a little worse).

On the turn when a fourth heart hits the board, I don't think Villain played well in check-calling. He'd be better off making a small bet, perhaps 1200.

(Of course if Villain knew that I would make the idiotic play of pushing a set into a dry side pot with four hearts on board, then check-calling is a great play by him.)

Pre-flop, it is a call because of the implied odds.

On the flop, The guy all-is is almost always on a good draw A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or k [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or simply a pair and a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

The caller needs to have a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], there's no way he calls with a set, there's enough money involved to risk to loose it to a drawing hand, so with 2 pairs and better he should ahve go all-in. With the nuts, he should call, so 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] with 1 really good (A or K) he should call. So he has at least 1 heart.

If you push, he will call 100% of the time so there's no FE, I would do As a stop n Go (on the turn instead of the flop, if it's a non-heart. So I call the flop.

Turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], in my mind he gt his flush and the first guy all-inb should have too, so there's no point of pushing all-in, there's no side pot and you will only be called by better hands.

River? Check unless I improve to a boat. I don't know if I would call a bet, I don't think so...