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  #71  
Old 12-15-2005, 08:36 PM
The Don The Don is offline
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

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lol, Borodog, what did you just look that up or something? Either way by assuming I meant acid when referring to half an oz, youve made it clear you have no real life experience or knowledge with drugs whatsoever.

I completely agree with your abstract economic models that show equilibrium and demand and supply and prices yada yada yada. I completely disagree with your head in the clouds logic that more use of heroine, crystal meth, and PCP is a desirable thing for individuals, neighborhoods, and society.

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I disagree with your head in the clouds logic that government should restrict anything which can lead individuals to do harm to themselves (intentional strawman here).

Wait, you actually don't think that. You are arbitrarily designating which substances/activites individuals should not be allowed to possess/engage in, while at the same time allowing other self-destructive substances/activities. This makes no sense.
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  #72  
Old 12-16-2005, 12:04 AM
hmkpoker hmkpoker is offline
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

Riddick, it's not about the drugs, it's about freedom. That's the whole point. Yes, there's a little danger, but I'd rather live in a society where bob the neighbor is allowed to buy a gram of ice at the store than a society where violent criminals market the same stuff.

Also, I don't see why people think that just because a drug becomes legal, everyone's going to do it. I don't think legalizing heroin will make people who wouldn't otherwise do it say "hey, let's go shoot up!" There are a lot of drugs out there that are legal that people don't do because they realize that, despite their legality, they're still drugs, they're still potent substances, and maybe they're not for them.
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  #73  
Old 12-16-2005, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

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hmk,

My two dissenting opinions:

As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart, I am still willing to make sacrifices so that my State can protect me (Patriot Act for example, as I have no problem getting searched head to freakin toe before getting on a plane, as I expect everyone else to be since there is nothing to hide) Drugs are another, and here is why

#2 - Normal people dont say "hey lets shoot up this weekend!", but tragic things happen to normal people who then no longer think "normally" or "rationally". If normal Joe just lost his son to juvenile cancer thats gonna be a tough time, but normal Joe doesnt know any drug dealers and never has - enter the problem: now otherwise normal Joe is tempted to stroll into his local store and induce some euphoria to ease his pain - uh-oh, it consumed his life now and ruined himself and his whole once normal family. Then throw in the other side, youthful experimentation. I even once asked my regular dealer if he came across any meth or mescaline to let me know, out of sheer idiotic curiosity. Had I been able to stroll into my store and "check it out" one weekend since its legal, who knows, theres a chance it could have consumed my life (goodbye job/school, girlfriend, friends, family, etc) Fortunately for me, there was no "supply" to be found so I stuck with the weed.

I see and understand the two main angles - the ill-fought "drug war" and the freedom from state issue, but I and probably most Americans are comfortable sacrificing the $$$ spent, the lowlifes who resort to dealing, and the freedom to keep the supply as limited as humanly possible.
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  #74  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:04 AM
natedogg natedogg is offline
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

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Your examples are awful. Rape is not victimless. Recreational drug use is.


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Having seen two friends' lives consumed and ultimately ended by heroin, and their families' lives destroyed in the process, this is the most clueless, ignorant statement I've read on this board to date.

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This asinine argument is unfortunately used all too often when the issue of drug prohibition is discussed.

You're simply redefining what "victimless" means. The way you're using it means "other people are unhappy that you do it." That may be true but they are not victims the way a murder or rape victim is a victim.

If you want to include a defintion of "non-victimless" crime that includes self-destructive or family-destructive behaviour that makes your family unhappy, you'll need to criminalize a lot more than just drug use.

Or are you actually advocating that we go back to Prohibition, because after all, there are plenty of people whose lives are "consumed and ultimately ended by alcohol and their families' lives destroyed in the process".

Replace alcohol with any kind of self-destructive behaviour. Everquest addictions (see eqdailygrind.blogspot.com for a fascinating read), gambling, poker, overeating, smoking, compulsive shopping, working long hours, mountain climbing obsessions, adultery, you name it.

Rape and other vicious crimes are direct acts of violence perpetrated against another person. Drug use is a personal choice, albeit at time foolish and self-destructive one but it is by definition victimless.

natedogg
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  #75  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:16 AM
BCPVP BCPVP is offline
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

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As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart, I am still willing to make sacrifices so that my State can protect me

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This statment is contradictory. How can someone who claims to be "rather libertarian" (Note the "Liberty" part of that word) also claim that they have no problem forcing others to have less liberty?
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  #76  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:28 AM
natedogg natedogg is offline
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

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As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart


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Ummm... I don't think that word means what you think it means.

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I and probably most Americans are comfortable sacrificing the $$$ spent, the lowlifes who resort to dealing, and the freedom to keep the supply as limited as humanly possible.

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As I've mentioned before, if you're not yet furious about the drug war you are just ignorant. You're willing to sacrifice money and freedom to limit the supply?

The SUPPLY IS NOT LIMITED! Supply has gone up during the drug war. Anyone who want to get high on any kind of drug you can think of can get it more easily than alcohol. Your obscene war on drugs has not only eroded our rights and freedoms, and destroyed countless lives unnecessarily, but it has also UTTERLY FAILED to achieve its goals. Supply is up, drug profits are high, users abound, and the war churns on.

You people who ignorantly support this insanity are to blame. It's a disgrace and future generations will view our drug war as one of the blackest marks in our history.

natedogg
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  #77  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:28 AM
Autocratic Autocratic is offline
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart, I am still willing to make sacrifices so that my State can protect me

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This statment is contradictory. How can someone who claims to be "rather libertarian" (Note the "Liberty" part of that word) also claim that they have no problem forcing others to have less liberty?

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That'd not at all contradictory. The word "rather" would mean he has a tendency towards libertarianism. I don't think anyone in that movement agrees with no government whatsoever.
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  #78  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:36 AM
BCPVP BCPVP is offline
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a rather libertarian minded thinker at heart, I am still willing to make sacrifices so that my State can protect me

[/ QUOTE ]
This statment is contradictory. How can someone who claims to be "rather libertarian" (Note the "Liberty" part of that word) also claim that they have no problem forcing others to have less liberty?

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd not at all contradictory. The word "rather" would mean he has a tendency towards libertarianism. I don't think anyone in that movement agrees with no government whatsoever.

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Here's the definition of libertarian from dictionary.com:
lib·er·tar·i·an Audio pronunciation of "libertarian" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-tār-n)
n.

1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
2. One who believes in free will.

To believe as fervently as he does that drugs should be illegal moves more towards maximizing the role of the state and minimizing individual rights. Thus his opinion is anti-thetical to the concept of libertarianism.
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  #79  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:05 AM
Autocratic Autocratic is offline
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

I wasn't referring to his thoughts on drugs, just what you quoted him saying specifically.
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  #80  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:16 AM
BCPVP BCPVP is offline
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Default Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't referring to his thoughts on drugs, just what you quoted him saying specifically.

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Then I should have been more specific. In the context of this thread, considering his position on the legality of drugs, his statement was contradictory.
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