Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion

[Justin A]

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So if I go out to eat with a party of 15 and they automatically add 15% to the bill and I don't tip on top of that, I've stiffed them?

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Probably. 15% is a marginal tip, particularly for someone serving a big party. And as long as we are into silly semantics, the 15% is usually referred to on the menu as a service charge. And since it is not optional, it is not a tip.

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Some places do 18% and call it a gratuity.

[B Dids]

Which is exactly what I was talking about, and I think the other guy knows that but is being difficult.

FWIW- I tip 20+ if it's my own choice, but if a place forces a tip on me I'll usually not tip on part of that.

The fact is that no matter how you try and define it- money was removed from the prize pool to tip the dealers. It's simply not fair to expect a guy to tip on top of that. This was already discussed in great length in an earlier thread and the consensus (including Fossilman) agrees with that point of view.

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Some places do 18% and call it a gratuity.

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So?????

I don't care if they call it an albino penquin. It's not an albino penquin, and it's not a gratuity. Words have meaning, and people can't talk to each other if each insists on using his own definition of the words he uses. Most of us here are speaking English. In that particular language, a tip or a gratuity is "...something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service...".

A "mandatory gratuity" is not a gratuity. That is an oxymoron. Or oxymoran. If it mandatory, it is a service charge or fee no matter what you call it.

The WSOP entry fees had some amount deducted for dealers, floor, etc., and the remainder was allocated to those in the money. If that amount was 3%, if you want to call it a tip, then each and every entrant tipped 3% of $10,000 before he sat at the table. But that isn't what happened, because no one voluntarily handed over $300 and said, this is for the dealers. Money was taken out of the entry fees, right off the top. Some was for the house, some was for the dealers and such. None of it was a tip.

After those deductions, the rest of the money went into the prize pool. Hachem's share of the prize pool was $7.5 million. Apparently, he did not give any of that to those who worked the WSOP. In English, that means that he did not tip. I think it means the same thing in Australian.

[NCAces]

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Some places do 18% and call it a gratuity.

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So?????

I don't care if they call it an albino penquin. It's not an albino penquin, and it's not a gratuity. Words have meaning, and people can't talk to each other if each insists on using his own definition of the words he uses. Most of us here are speaking English. In that particular language, a tip or a gratuity is "...something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service...".

A "mandatory gratuity" is not a gratuity. That is an oxymoron. Or oxymoran. If it mandatory, it is a service charge or fee no matter what you call it.

The WSOP entry fees had some amount deducted for dealers, floor, etc., and the remainder was allocated to those in the money. If that amount was 3%, if you want to call it a tip, then each and every entrant tipped 3% of $10,000 before he sat at the table. But that isn't what happened, because no one voluntarily handed over $300 and said, this is for the dealers. Money was taken out of the entry fees, right off the top. Some was for the house, some was for the dealers and such. None of it was a tip.

After those deductions, the rest of the money went into the prize pool. Hachem's share of the prize pool was $7.5 million. Apparently, he did not give any of that to those who worked the WSOP. In English, that means that he did not tip. I think it means the same thing in Australian.

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Please tell me where you deal so that I can make sure never to play there.

NCAces

[Army Eye]

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The WSOP entry fees had some amount deducted for dealers, floor, etc., and the remainder was allocated to those in the money. If that amount was 3%, if you want to call it a tip, then each and every entrant tipped 3% of $10,000 before he sat at the table. But that isn't what happened, because no one voluntarily handed over $300 and said, this is for the dealers

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Sure they did. They implicitly agreed to do this when they paid the entry free.


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After those deductions, the rest of the money went into the prize pool. Hachem's share of the prize pool was $7.5 million. Apparently, he did not give any of that to those who worked the WSOP. In English, that means that he did not tip. I think it means the same thing in Australian.

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Hrm.. are you just debating the semantics of the words tip/gratuity/etc., or do you really believe Hachem did something wrong?

[BigHef]

In Australia we don't tip as a general rule - maybe that could be the reason he didn't tip extra? Different culture - US pay poor wages and expect tips to make it up, Aussies get paid better wages and don't rely on a tip.

[Autocratic]

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In Australia we don't tip as a general rule - maybe that could be the reason he didn't tip extra? Different culture - US pay poor wages and expect tips to make it up, Aussies get paid better wages and don't rely on a tip.

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This has been gone over. The fact that a "tip" is forced anyway and that Australians are not accustomed to the ritual as Americans are seems sufficient reason for any logical person to forgive Hachem if they felt offended by his actions.

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In Australia we don't tip as a general rule - maybe that could be the reason he didn't tip extra? Different culture - US pay poor wages and expect tips to make it up, Aussies get paid better wages and don't rely on a tip.

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That's a good explanation. I never thought of that, but I have heard that before. Service workers do get paid more down under than here. That's a perfectly logical explanation.

[Zetack]

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Some places do 18% and call it a gratuity.

[/ QUOTE ]

So?????

I don't care if they call it an albino penquin. It's not an albino penquin, and it's not a gratuity. Words have meaning, and people can't talk to each other if each insists on using his own definition of the words he uses. Most of us here are speaking English. In that particular language, a tip or a gratuity is "...something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service...".

A "mandatory gratuity" is not a gratuity. That is an oxymoron. Or oxymoran. If it mandatory, it is a service charge or fee no matter what you call it.

The WSOP entry fees had some amount deducted for dealers, floor, etc., and the remainder was allocated to those in the money. If that amount was 3%, if you want to call it a tip, then each and every entrant tipped 3% of $10,000 before he sat at the table. But that isn't what happened, because no one voluntarily handed over $300 and said, this is for the dealers. Money was taken out of the entry fees, right off the top. Some was for the house, some was for the dealers and such. None of it was a tip.

After those deductions, the rest of the money went into the prize pool. Hachem's share of the prize pool was $7.5 million. Apparently, he did not give any of that to those who worked the WSOP. In English, that means that he did not tip. I think it means the same thing in Australian.

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Ok great, words have meaning. Glad we established that. Of course actions have meaning too. If I say, hey, I like you and would never do anything to hurt you, and then I punch you in the face, what meaning did my words have?

Ok, so its a slightly out of focus analogy. Let's say this, I would call the money taken out of the prize pool for the dealers a forced tip. So that's an oxymoron and isn't a tip you say? Fine, but I would say that it is the functional equivalent of a tip.

So not a tip, but the functional equivalent of a tip. Now whether Hachem is obligated to tip on top of that is a debatable issue.

Envision this, a 1-2 NL game. The casino rakes 10 percent up to 5 dollars. Plus for every pot over 15 dollars up to 50 dollars a dollar is taken out, and 2 dollars for every pot over 50 dollars, as a "gratuity" for the dealer. The gratuity goes into the dealer's pocket at the end of the night. Oddly enought not a one of those cheap bastards at the table tips the dealer. Scum, that's all those cheapskate players are, scum, I tell ya.

--Zetack

[maryfield48]

Nice response, Zetack.

To get back on topic, Paul Phillips sat beside Hachem at the current WSOP circuit tournament. He writes about it in his journal.